SPOILERS Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents Discussion Group

[swreader]

A lot of respect for the rats I had disappeared Sadly, the other rats were prepared to believe him, so already the seeds of the rats' society's self-destruction have already been sown.

Whereas the true hero not only actually met the bone rat, but also leapt on him making his little scythe skitter away across the floor.

At least Maurice was honest!

Umm....Maurice was honest? When, where? When was he not assisting the rats to feather his own nest (like telling them the silver money was worth more than the gold money).

And I have no idea what you are talking about when you say, "when Darktan was prepared to lie about religion purely as a means to cling on to power. " There is no question that Darktan had a life-changing experience (or perhaps a near-death experience). But he's not the one who suggests using the tooth marks from the trap-which isn't exactly a religious experience. That was Sardine who, having told him that he changed after being caught in the trap says,
"Seems to me, boss, that anyone who could stare down the Bone Rat . . .well, no one is gong to want to mess with him, am I right? A man who wears the teethmarks of the Bone Rat like a belt? Uh-uh, no.People'll followa rat like that. That was a good thing you did back there, with ol' Hamnpork. Burying him and widdling on top and putting a sign on him -- well, the old rats like that, and so do the young ones. Shows'em you're thinking for everyone."

And Darktan's immediate reaction is to say that he needs Dangerous Beans because he "knows the map for thinking. We've got to think our way out of this. Running around and squeaking won't work anymore."

Further, to be technical, it's not Maurice but the dead Maurice who pounces on the Bone Rat, and is immediately sorry when he is picked up by the scruff of the neck by DEATH. He performs his one noble action in giving up one of his lives for Dangerous Beans at this point--but even he can't explain why, and hopes no one finds out about it because it's so uncatlike. Further, he doesn't want to remember that he's done this because it'd be too embarrassing.

Maurice, perhaps, could be called a kind of anti-hero. Someone who has the time of his life strutting up and down and ordering everyone around. But since he can no longer do that in this town, he leaves.

 

[Tonyblack]

I don't think Dark Tan had any opposition at that stage. Hamnpork was dead and everyone automatically looked to him as the leader. It seems to me that he was a somewhat reluctant leader at that and would have been far happier leading his squad.

I think that he may have reluctantly started a legend when he got trapped in the erm... trap and no amount of trying to deny it would have stopped that - so why not use it? I don't think Dark Tan was trying to be a Christ-like figure - if anyone came back from the dead it was Dangerous Beans and he is more Christ-like if you want to make that comparison.

And yes, Maurice is something of an anti-hero.

 

[poohbcarrot]

(Sardines)"And you should let them think what they like about you..."
But there's big rats like Inbrine and Sellby and a bunch of others, boss, and now that Hamnpork's dead, they might think they should be the leader. Get my drift?"
"No"
Sardines sighed, "I reckon you do, boss....
...Well, thanks to chattery little Nourishing, you're the rat that looked the Bone Rat right in the face and came back, aren't you?
...Seems to me that anyone who could stare down the Bone Rat....well, no one is going to mess with him

I don't think Dark Tan had any opposition at that stage. Hamnpork was dead and everyone automatically looked to him as the leader.

So, Darktan had opposition to the leadership, but by perpetuating the "Bone Rat" lie, all opposition was squashed.

And I have no idea what you are talking about when you say, "when Darktan was prepared to lie about religion purely as a means to cling on to power. "

See above.

 

[poohbcarrot]

Umm....Maurice was honest? When, where? When was he not assisting the rats to feather his own nest (like telling them the silver money was worth more than the gold money).

The silver and gold coins was just Maurice "playing the game". He let the rats have all the money in the end, didn't he?

Not eating any rat who could talk.

Instead of abandoning the rats when he had a chance, he risked his life to save them.

Sacrificing one of his own lives to save Dangerous Beans.

The rats dreamed of living in peace with humans, Maurice arranged that.

All Keith wanted to do was play music, Maurice arranged that.

Maurice arranged for all the keekees to go free.

And while every rat and human had their dreams fullfilled, what did Maurice get for all his trouble? Absolutely zero!

Hardly the selfish "feathering of his own nest" that you imply, but the actions of a decent, brave, selfless, intelligent and HONEST individual .

(you've got the "Umm...." disease too! )

 

[Tonyblack]

But you're suggesting that Dark Tan pretends he rose again from the dead and therefore is somehow supernatural - right?

I don't think that's the suggestion so much as that he's one tough rat who survived being crushed in a trap and has the scars to prove it. As you point out in the section you've posted, it's Nourishing who starts any sort of myth. He told her at the time that it was because of a rusty spring that he survived.

I don't think he's trying to fool anyone that he's a Christ-like figure.

 

[poohbcarrot]

I'm not saying that Darktan pretends to be Jesus, I'm saying that the lie that Darktan stared down the Bone Rat is not disputed, and is used to keep a leadership battle from occurring and Darktan in power.

You yourself said "Why not use it (the lie)?"

 

[Tonyblack]

Then we are talking at crossed purposes. I understood from your previous posts that you were saying that Dark Tan was using the scars as a sort of sign that he'd died and been resurrected and was therefore starting a religion.

I'm talking about him using the fact that he survived a trap and has the scars to prove it as proof that he's a tough rat.

 

[Dotsie]

I think it's a little bit of both. He's a tough rat, with some kind of supernatural abilities.

 

[poohbcarrot]

Then we are talking at crossed purposes. I understood from your previous posts that you were saying that Dark Tan was using the scars as a sort of sign that he'd died and been resurrected and was therefore starting a religion.

Eh? Far too deep for me that sort of comment!

Anyway, it was Kakaze talking about Jesus and resurrection, not me.

I mean the "staring down the Bone Rat" lie was a religious-type experience which was deliberately exploited for reasons of holding on to power.

 

[Tonyblack]

Then I apologise for misunderstanding and thinking it was you that made the Jesus comment.

Actually, if anyone returned from the dead and was likely to have religious significance attached to it then it's Dangerous Beans.

Maybe Terry is making a point here that as the rats become more intelligent they need to make things up to explain the things they don't understand. This is (arguably) why religions get started in the first place.

The rats have come to fear the dark as they've become more intelligent and that's possibly something that needs imagination to do. Maybe they will adopt a religion of sorts - it certainly seems to be going that way. Something to comfort them in the dark places and to give them hope about what happens after death.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

strength (of any type) + belief = power.

Most myth/god-kings/religio-philosophic power-bases are founded on strong, re-inforced faith/belief and that other great factor - fear which can be very subtle indeed (as in I'm too scared not to believe in god 'cos I don't want to go to Hell*).

So is the power of bullies - you have to believe you're in for a bloody good metephoric kicking to be so scared of them. The human/changeling mind is a very strange place indeed and it's possibly better to have a god/angel under your bed than a monster.

* I do believe in Hell mostly as you can't miss it in the here and now. I just try to ignore it...*

 

[poohbcarrot]

(Possibly my last comment on this thread)

As Sam Vimes says, "Where's the money?"

What did the rats gain? Everything.
What did the rats lose? Nothing.

What did Maurice gain? Nothing. Not a sausage. Absolutely zilch.
What did Maurice lose? Everything.

 

[Tonyblack]

(Possibly my last comment on this thread)

As Sam Vimes says, "Where's the money?"

What did the rats gain? Everything.
What did the rats lose? Nothing.

What did Maurice gain? Nothing. Not a sausage. Absolutely zilch.
What did Maurice lose? Everything.

I'm not sure I agree with that regarding Maurice, Pooh. Maurice had the chance to stay in the town. He would have got what he professed to want - a nice old lady to take care of him. And he could have been a star in his own right in the new community.

But, instead he chose to leave and go back to doing what he'd done before - showing everyone what a clever cat he is. I think it's in this book, but it could be another DW book, where a character says that the money is just a way of keeping score. Maurice doesn't need money and he doesn't need the security of a home. He'd prefer to be out on his own and in control of his life.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Maurice is a cat - they don't need anything at all because they are always at the centre of their world. If they're altruistic in any way it's not by design - it just happens to be what they want to be doing. :twisted:

 

[Dotsie]

Cats like sport. They play with the mouse before they kill it, then they don't eat it; they play with the humans before they fleece them, then they don't spend it

 

[Tonyblack]

You now have two weeks to read or reread Going Postal for the discussion starting on Monday 7th September.

 

[mspanners]

The only part of the book I loved was the part when the mice were working like a bomb disposal team on the trap, not one of my favorite books I am afraid to say.....

Still i would recomend it to anyone who wants there kids to have nightmares!

Is it an adult books or for the more disturbed kids?

One of the hardest of Terry's books to categorise I reckon...

 

[Dotsie]

I've never understood the need to categorise books Once at reading group a man (he only came to group twice) did nothing but moan about a book I'd chosen, & his main problem seemed to be that he couldn't tell what genre it was.

It wasn't you was it?

 

[Tonyblack]

Quite right! Terry's books in particular tend to defy categorisation.

 

[poohbcarrot]

I've never understood the need to categorise books Once at reading group a man (he only came to group twice) did nothing but moan about a book I'd chosen, & his main problem seemed to be that he couldn't tell what genre it was.

It wasn't you was it?

IT WAS ME!! :twisted: