Are the Tiffany Books "Children's Books?"

[Jan Van Quirm]

Hi Yapcash

Well, having got about third of the way through Wintersmith (where he makes Tiffany the ice crystal roses) and having had a quick scan through the posts in this thread, all I can say is that these books are how a young witch develops in terms of her completely normal human development and in that way only it's a book about children - in some places.

Not for children or for adults, but for people who have been children.

It's also about how witches 'happen to be' witches and the demonstration is in every case that witches are not wizards (and so never men and why Esk had such a hard time of course). Terry also shows how part of being a witch is 'not doing magic' which is why there's so much doubt over whether Granny Aching was really a witch because her magic was totally invested in the land and being a part of it with the creatures that belonged to it most - so mainly the sheep and in part with the Feegles and most crucially their Kelda which is why Tiffany has to briefly become one in order to face her first big challenge which is of course wholly magical.

Without exception (so far) when Tiffany has to do 'proper' magic it's really internalised and with the Hiver completely so of course. The Elf Queen is about the power of dreams so ditto there and with the Wintersmith I think I'm beginning to 'get' that it's hormonal... :twisted:

I'll stop there and just say that I'm enjoying her stories but I don't think she's in any way special or more talented (necessarily) to the other witches young or old who are all quite clever in their own ways and without exception self-reliant and adept at people-handling within their own style. I love the idea of boffo too - and they all do that more or less - in their own ways

 

[Tonyblack]

Yes, in many ways I think Terry has taken all of his ideas about witches in the previous books and concentrated them into these books. It's like he started with the question: what is a Discworld witch? And then gone on to explore that question through the series.

 

[author3]

I think Tiffany should be in the teenage section to make things a lot easier

 

[pandasthumb]

What is a 'children's book'? I take Jason's point about language and I quite agree, although applaud Terry for using words such as 'sussurus' (sp?). But having a child who would read anything at the age of 6 - these books are not overburdened with concepts that would require explanation. Readers with less world experience would understand the fairies stealing away a baby brother, magical pixies who will fight/ drink anything and the isolation of being not like other people. My son stated reading Maurice, he wouldn't have got so involved in feet of Clay as he would not have been able to relate to or understand the concepts inherent in the novel.

Readers with less 'world experience' would not necessarily understand all the references in Soul Music for example. Think of when Death is with the beggars and one of the Sex pistols Wannabes gives Death a coin - for which Death is grateful. It's really funny. This is not a very good example and I am sure with appropriate time etc I could find a better one, so I hope you get the idea.

It's interesting as we now have certain sections of the library that my students are only allowed to borrow from - a section that contains 'age appropriate books'. it's terrrible. 14 yr oldsare not meant to be reading 'Don't call me Ishmael'. It's a travesty! (Tiffany is still on the approved shelf, well was last time I checked).

 

[pandasthumb]

There's one particular part of one of the books (which I've forgotten) where Granny spends the whole night Borrowing to try and find out what's going on. Nanny talks to a few people and has the answers. Granny comments that she would never have thought of doing that.

Lords and Ladies - about who has been dancing around the stones.

 

[Bron H]

I'm 14 so I guess it is classed as about my age group. These books are what first brought me into the world of terry pratchett and i think they are generaly as good as his adults books with maybe the first one being a little weaker. I havn't bought I SHALL WEAR MIDNIGHT because i havn't yet found it in paperback. Is it even out in paperback yet.

 

[Tonyblack]

It certainly is in paperback. I bought my wife a rand new paperback copy for Christmas to save her reading the first edition hardback. She thought the paperback was so nice and pristine that she read the hardback again.

Welcome to the site, Bron H.

 

[Tiffany]

Yes it is out in paperback now, Bron, saw it in a shop today.
Have you read The Amazing Maurice & His Educated Rodents yet? I have just finished reading it. It's very good.
Welcome to the forum.

 

[ShadowNinjaCat]

Welcome to the forum,Bron H.

 

[Natalya]

From Russian TP's fan.
I have not Big Patience, that's why I already started read "WinterSmith" ( although I didn't finish of "Thud"!).... I do it sometimes, when I not reading "Thud"...
And I found that I no need dictionary now! ... well... Apart from 1-2 word per page! (in "Thud": when I started read - from 5 to 20 and 3-12 now plus meditation about some phrases (for right understanding) !).
PS Seriously: Unfortunately, books about Tiffany haven't translated in Russian yet Thats why I'll be able to talk about it only after have finish of reading 'WinterSmith' at least.

 

[Leewerrey]

Aw yes, we're poor Russians It's still impossible task to find books about Tiffany in bookshops because they haven't translated as yet, which is actually very strange because I saw the "Monstrous Regiment" a couple of days ago (though,with the title that was changed in a very wierd way definitely with the purpose to be more suitable for the Russian language) and I don't understand why there is no translation of "The Wee Free Men" though it was written earlier!
There are definitely some malicious snails in the ranks of our publishers... :think:

 

[Natalya]

Hi, Leewerrey
Glad to see you
Honestly, I think translation by Берденников Николай is the best. An I seriously think that man should translate man-author, and woman should translate woman-author. Because structure of man's and woman's minds is different in general!
Frankly, in spite of this, I'm going to translate TP's books when I'll retire on a pension ...
I know that it will possible because in Russia good translators don't hurry bring these excellent literature in the mass, alas!

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

Maybe they (the translators) are having trouble with the Scottish dialect(language) words) in it from The Feegles even some of the English people do and they live here.

 

[Natalya]

Oh, no, because we already have some books with The Feegles. Translation is enough good, indeed!

 

[StuartHX]

Interesting... but I haven't particularly noticed any difference in language and structure between the Tiffany Aching books and the rest of the Discworld novels... they are just part of the overall canon.

As someone has said, the only distinguishing feature is that the main protagonist is a child, which may well appeal to younger readers, but other than than that.... and, interestingly enough The Amazing Maurice... deals with some very dark issues which only really reappear in Thud.

But... Philip Pulman has also had this conundrum thrown at him. His Dark Materials deals with very adult issues even if his main characters are again children. If asked, why publish as a childrens' book his stock reply is.. the book is published, end of. And if it's published you can buy it and read it

 

[Slantaholic]

I chose to delete my replies.

[deleted]

 

[pip]

YA fiction deals with sex in many ways. Its one of the things that defines the genre.
And how is it subliminal : :
If you read it backwards is there a hidden message : :

 

[Slantaholic]

I chose to delete what the 15yo member of a reading group read subliminally into the books. And by subliminally, I mean, she read what was there and was not visible to everyone until she told us so.

[deleted]

 

[pip]

Not to argue but I'd look up subliminal in a dictionary . if its obvious and the first thing perceived it ain't subliminal. Its more like a brick in the face

 

[=Tamar]

" subliminal"

Because it's the first thing my '15yo' member mentioned.

As pip said, that's not subliminal. Subliminal is stuff you _don't_ notice.
It isn't even necessarily implied. I certainly didn't read it that way.

it sounded like: Mr Petty didn't like Amber's boyfriend, so he sent him back home, away from his pretty step-daughter, whom he raped and impregnated. Then he beat her, because she has always treated him like father and she behaved like a family member during that sex, not a pretty girl unrelated to him who was old enough (13) to have sh**ging lessons from him. He kept beating her because she wasn't appreciating the attention, and he couldn't give up because she was too pretty. The boyfriend couldn't rescue her being 13 and working elsewhere on dresses with his mum. Mr Seth Petty was guilty of domestic violence, beating and battering, and one day Amber had a miscarriage, which sometimes meant the father was unfit or so was the mother. It was linked to not complete infertility, but disease and 'curses'. The pub found out, knowing Petty was not the father.

I didn't read any incest in ISWM. "Nasty secrets" doesn't have to refer to that; it could refer to things like senile relatives being kept in the attic.

All I read was: 13-year-old Amber got pregnant by her 13-year-old boyfriend. That's very clear: Mr Petty's official objection was that Amber and 'that boy' were behaving scandalously. Petty, already drunk, beat her because he had apparently just found out she was pregnant. Meanwhile, Mrs Petty had run screaming and told the drunks at the pub, who decided that Mr Petty was going too far this time and decided to perform the traditional noisy announcement that they disapproved. (It's possible that they wouldn't have bothered to stop a "typical" beating, but that beating a pregnant girl was the tipping point. Petty seems to have been the last to suspect. If he had been responsible for it, he wouldn't have been the last to figure it out; he'd have been looking for the signs.)

Tiffany's father sent a lad to wake her up, and she got there first. The band of drunks would not have gone in the house to attack, but Tiffany knew that Petty would have gone outside and provoked an attack. She got him out of there to save the drunken villagers from becoming murderers. (Mr Aching was in the crowd, not expecting it to devolve into murderous violence but alert to the need to prevent it, so she was also saving him, though he had the sense to slip away and check the barn.)

While the drunks made noise around an empty house, Tiffany took care of the girl and talked to her father. After the drunks went away, Tiffany took Amber away. It's made clear that although Amber might not be Petty's daughter, she also might be, that in fact it was the uncertainty that was a continuing aggravation to him.

Later Petty sobered up enough to realize he had caused the death of the fetus, and may have caused the death of his daughter as well (though Tiffany had already taken her away, he didn't know that she was being taken care of); in a fit of drunken remorse, he attempted suicide. Tiffany saved him, as much for his attempt at an offering of flowers as for any other principle.

Yet some people can hear about domestic violence for a long time, seeing bruises, etc. and never react or tell authorities or heal/rescue the victim, etc.

Just as happened in the village in ISWM. They all knew about the bruises, but they didn't do anything.

A mob starts to 'kill' or punish Petty for injuring a pretty girl called Amber, who had a miscarriage after he beat her only. If he'd thrown her into a river or out of a window, most men would want to rescue her (like firefighters) and would start a group (like how unions form in clumps).

Are you describing the centuries-ago customs paralleled in ISWM or modern "real" "true-ish" men? The mob in ISWM did not originally intend to kill Petty. A few hotheads were talking big but the others would keep them under control as long as they didn't actually encounter him, according to Mr Aching. So they really only went to make a lot of noise and give him notice that he was disapproved of. Possibly he would have trouble getting help in future, or would have to pay cash at the pub. The group - "mob" - might have rescued her if they'd actually arrived in time to do anything for her, but even by the time Tiffany got there, Petty had finished the beating and gone to bed, leaving Amber unconscious in the barn.

They arrive and find Amber missing. Tiffany has her somewhere safe. Most men peel off, and think about marrying the pretty Amber later (even at 13), and looking after her from her vicious father.

Huh? They didn't pay any attention to Amber. They were yelling around the empty house while Tiffany and Amber were still in the barn. Only Mr Aching bothered to check the barn.
The only person who wanted to marry Amber was her boyfriend.

So ISWM is... odd about true-ish men behaviour.

We seem to have read different books.