Are you a Vimes or Carrot (Wo)man?
- Thread starter raisindot
- Start date
How did Vetinari force Carrot to go in any way? He might have guessed that Carrot would go after Angua, he might also see it as a bonus, but nothing he did forced Carrot to go.
And to pour cold water on your earlier arguments, Vetinari (who you seem to think is always right) agrees that running after Angua is out of character.
And to pour cold water on your earlier arguments, Vetinari (who you seem to think is always right) agrees that running after Angua is out of character.
I'm sure that Vetinari did indeed know a lot of what was going on, but hardly everything and I think you give him too much credit.
Remember that Skimmer was actually going to do everything - he was a lot more than just Vimes advisor. But with Skimmer's death, Vimes had to take over and although the whole team eventually succeeded in their task (including Sybil's negotiation skills), it was hardly cut and dried.
All manner of things could have gone wrong. As I said earlier - if Angua hadn't had to slow down to save Carrot, she may have stopped Wolfgang before things got too out of hand. But there's no evidence that she would have or could have and there's certainly no evidence that Vetinari had all the bases covered.
Vetinari is something of a game player - even a gambler. He makes plans and puts his playing pieces into operation and then settles back to see what happens. But I really don't think that even he could predict everything.
Remember that Skimmer was actually going to do everything - he was a lot more than just Vimes advisor. But with Skimmer's death, Vimes had to take over and although the whole team eventually succeeded in their task (including Sybil's negotiation skills), it was hardly cut and dried.
All manner of things could have gone wrong. As I said earlier - if Angua hadn't had to slow down to save Carrot, she may have stopped Wolfgang before things got too out of hand. But there's no evidence that she would have or could have and there's certainly no evidence that Vetinari had all the bases covered.
Vetinari is something of a game player - even a gambler. He makes plans and puts his playing pieces into operation and then settles back to see what happens. But I really don't think that even he could predict everything.
I'm not really interested in a taking sides argument, but pooh you are known for sometimes expressing opinions on novels that aren't your own. Expect to be shot down over it But I don't think there's anything wrong with a bit of fun in discussions. If you were an english professor you might disagree.
But I don't think there's anything wrong with a bit of fun in discussions. If you were an english professor you might disagree.
raisindot said:
pip said:
Yes but one is a deep philisophicaly important discussion.
Then theres the pope one.
Then theres the pope one.
J-I-B
Pooh is of course being poohish.
Vetinari is the ultimate gamesmaster (gambler too perhaps but you can bet *sorry*
he's a brilliant card counter) as well as a supreme tactician. Yes, he knows 'everything' that goes on in Ankh-Morpork and he has Lady M to keep him in the mix on what's going down in Uberwald in terms of her interest in Bonk especially PLUS his own sources of info with the deceased former diplomat for A-M who's killed right at the beginning of the book...That is the overriding reason (including especially the clacks coming down) to send Vimes out there with the others. As we're all saying Inigo Skimmer's (skimming for info anyone?
) the key person in that group on the espionage side of things and why he's off to the clacks station at the first opportunity and of course an appointment with Wolfgang. For Vetinari it's the communication breakdown that's most important (but not personal even though it's meant he can't talk to Margalotta for a bit... ), so in a way Vimes mission is to smooth things down with the Low King so the clacks goes back up.Gavin. How could Vetinari possibly know about Gavin's mission aside from observing his arrival in A-M and seeing him leave with Angua. Yes he knew about Gavin's involvement, but I fail to see how he could know WHY he was there or indeed why Angua left with him. That's the wild card - I'll let you have the point on Carrot with the resignation aspect except so far as he was concerned he was out altogether because Angua had deserted him and he couldn't stand it.
The King's Shilling - if I didn't know you better I'd say you'd been smoking too many garden plants :twisted: There is no King of A-M to have his laws flouted. If, in a literal-minded way, you want a King then Carrot is your man/dwarf. The King can make his own law, but he (or she) has other people to enforce it. The King's shilling and kissing the Duchess are nothing more than meaningless traditions. Soldiers and policeman are professionals. But they can walk away or chose to serve in their own way like Polly and Jackrum do. In that respect policemen have more in-built flexibility because the Law can be interpreted. No King . No Duchess. Just your bog standard Terms and Conditions of employment.
Carrot wanted to resign - Vetinari played along with him, knowing fairly well that he'd be back eventually. Gavin and his effect on Carrot in making Angua break rank and not travel with Vimes are unexpected events which Vetinari can afford to overlook, or more likely factor into, his overall gameplan. because it really didn't matter where Carrot was provided Angua was going to Uberwald anyway to sort her family out.
Back to the original consideration, of whether being a Vimes or Carrot follower is a matter of whether you came in toward the beginning of the stories or nearer the end, I have to say that I am a Vimes person, and right from the start - indeed from Guards! Guards. I don't think he was a coward or a fool, but somebody deeply hurt; he was slipping "pension" money from his own earnings to help the plight of widows of coppers - because the city were not, and he was deeply cynical of the expectations (no matter how low) that were made on his Watch against the provisions given to it. He was doing his duty, and a lot of that involved making sure he was going to be alive to continue to do it.
I also quite like Carrot, but always regarded him as both an "all action hero" without the arrogance and a sounding board by which all others characters quirks can be measured against. I am not even sure what Angua loves about him, as it could easily be that he is the worst possible suitor apart from all the others - plus the fact that as Carrot loves her then there is no question that he would be unfaithful. There is no real depth to Carrot (strange for a dwarf) but his breadth of compassion for (nearly) all types of people is boundless.
In fact, he will make a great Patrician when Vetanari decides it is time.
I also quite like Carrot, but always regarded him as both an "all action hero" without the arrogance and a sounding board by which all others characters quirks can be measured against. I am not even sure what Angua loves about him, as it could easily be that he is the worst possible suitor apart from all the others - plus the fact that as Carrot loves her then there is no question that he would be unfaithful. There is no real depth to Carrot (strange for a dwarf) but his breadth of compassion for (nearly) all types of people is boundless.
In fact, he will make a great Patrician when Vetanari decides it is time.
Never going to happen. Why on earth or Disc would Terry ever get rid of Vetinari? He's much more likely to write Carrot out of the series.
Carrot may be a natural leader (or so we are told), but he doesn't have the cynicism and cunning to be a replacement for Vetinari. He'd never be able to play the guilds against each other or use guile to get information as Vetinari does.
Carrot may be a natural leader (or so we are told), but he doesn't have the cynicism and cunning to be a replacement for Vetinari. He'd never be able to play the guilds against each other or use guile to get information as Vetinari does.
Tonyblack said:
Never going to happen. Why on earth or Disc would Terry ever get rid of Vetinari? He's much more likely to write Carrot out of the series.
Carrot may be a natural leader (or so we are told), but he doesn't have the cynicism and cunning to be a replacement for Vetinari. He'd never be able to play the guilds against each other or use guile to get information as Vetinari does.
Carrot may be a natural leader (or so we are told), but he doesn't have the cynicism and cunning to be a replacement for Vetinari. He'd never be able to play the guilds against each other or use guile to get information as Vetinari does.
Now, that is power.
Carrot would never be patrician. He is destined to be the king of Ankh Morpork, an entirely different thing than being king. He knows this, but refuses to make this claim, but (at least until TFE) he acts as if he were one of those "old fashioned kings who sits by trees with oak leaves in their hair" (as Angua thinks). His ability to make everyone not only like him but to appear that he likes everybody instantly makes people of all races and cultures loyal to him.
It's because he is fully aware of these qualities that he chooses not to make his claim, as he explains to Vetinari in MAA. He simply chooses to exercise his talents in the service of the Watch, which gives him the authority to use his kingly talents in the role of "the man of the people" that he really wants to be while leaving politics and beauracracy and intrigue to those who are far better at it than he would ever be.
In fact, the last scene of TFE is really the first scene and only scene in all the books (other than as an extortion tool against Vetinari in MAA and presumably in Jingo) in which Carrot plays the king card.' When he speaks of the guards' 'taking of the king's shilling' he is referring not to some long ago monarch, but of the guards' loyalty to the would-be king, Carrot. That he points his sword at Nobby and Fred is a subtle reminder to them that he is playing this card.
The only other character possessing Carrot's meserizing talents is Moist Von Lipwig, but, unlike Carrot, he has to resort to trickery and showmanship to accomplish it, whereas Carrot gets people to like him just by being Carrot.
J-I-B
It's because he is fully aware of these qualities that he chooses not to make his claim, as he explains to Vetinari in MAA. He simply chooses to exercise his talents in the service of the Watch, which gives him the authority to use his kingly talents in the role of "the man of the people" that he really wants to be while leaving politics and beauracracy and intrigue to those who are far better at it than he would ever be.
In fact, the last scene of TFE is really the first scene and only scene in all the books (other than as an extortion tool against Vetinari in MAA and presumably in Jingo) in which Carrot plays the king card.' When he speaks of the guards' 'taking of the king's shilling' he is referring not to some long ago monarch, but of the guards' loyalty to the would-be king, Carrot. That he points his sword at Nobby and Fred is a subtle reminder to them that he is playing this card.
The only other character possessing Carrot's meserizing talents is Moist Von Lipwig, but, unlike Carrot, he has to resort to trickery and showmanship to accomplish it, whereas Carrot gets people to like him just by being Carrot.
J-I-B
I very carefully mentioned about "powers behind the throne", as Carrot is heir to it, within Vetanari's deliberations. Carrot could be King of the Peoples, and thus Patriach. Carrot may not appear to be cunning or manipulative, but he ensured that Vetanari attended the wedding of the daughter of (the king of the dunghill, appeared in Making Money as the underwriter for Moist's new paper money - can't recall the name?) and getting people to do stuff because they like him rather than by blackmail is just as effective. Also, people talk to Carrot and tell him things because they know he will do the right thing with the information - who needs spies?
post edit comment - Carrot cannot be King, whilst Vimes is around, so Patriach would be the next logical role.
post post edit comment - I dunno why I am supporting Carrot so much, my point is that Vimes was always a great character but it is his circumstances that have changed that allowed other aspects to flower. He would never have married Sybil if he thought she would be widowed, for instance.
post edit comment - Carrot cannot be King, whilst Vimes is around, so Patriach would be the next logical role.
post post edit comment - I dunno why I am supporting Carrot so much, my point is that Vimes was always a great character but it is his circumstances that have changed that allowed other aspects to flower. He would never have married Sybil if he thought she would be widowed, for instance.
