Are you a Vimes or Carrot (Wo)man?
- Thread starter raisindot
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I'm really not seeing why Vetinari would make Carrot patrician in the belief that he (Vetinari) would then have more power. Er, isn't he in charge of just about everything as it is?
As for Vetinari knowing everything, I have to disagree. In most of the books I can think of, he doesn't have all the pieces. In G!G! Wonse had to explain why the wall in the shades had to be demolished. He's been shot, arrested, poisoned (although he worked out that last one prety quickly), & abducted (I think). How he's still alive is a mystery
But I wouldn't say he's not very smart (and apprently getting smarter).
As for Vetinari knowing everything, I have to disagree. In most of the books I can think of, he doesn't have all the pieces. In G!G! Wonse had to explain why the wall in the shades had to be demolished. He's been shot, arrested, poisoned (although he worked out that last one prety quickly), & abducted (I think). How he's still alive is a mystery
But I wouldn't say he's not very smart (and apprently getting smarter).
Dotsie said:
Excuse me, he allows her?? Cor, us women are so lucky that our husbands allow us to do things! I would very much like to see what would happen if Vimes told Sybil he was allowing her to tend swamp dragons! 
Quite, Sam still takes risks, but the reasons are different.
Not even a case of thinking about stopping her from playing with dragons - she had them before she met Sam and it's what bonded them basically. Remember he actually had an emotional bond with Errol too, because he was such a crap dragon (until he proved otherwise) so Sam identified with him as a loser/no-hoper and as such Sybil's affection for swamp dragons despite all their silly, pathetic peculiarities was one of the basic driving reasons for his initial attraction to her. Unconditional compassion and faith is a very attractive trait.
Wasn't it Wonse who was Drumknott's predecessor, and wasn't he also Head of a Guild that encompassed clerks and secretaries and the like? Drumknott does not appear to have inherited that position, and the guild has not been mentioned since.
The Shades! and I've been wittering on about The Shambles (which I think is part of the City of York...) I may have to refresh my memory with some re-reading before pontificating around here...
Nah, why change the habit of a lifetime?
The Shades! and I've been wittering on about The Shambles (which I think is part of the City of York...) I may have to refresh my memory with some re-reading before pontificating around here...
Nah, why change the habit of a lifetime?
That was not Carrot--it was William De Worde, who, in "The Truth," leveraged the 'debt' Vetinari owed him for clearing his name by making it clear that Vetinari should attend the wedding of Harry King's daughter--and bring along most of the nobility of the town along with him. Carrot had a very small part in that book--playing the same "ineffective investigator" that he played in the two Moist books. More examples of Carrot's demotion.
But Carrot is cunning in many other ways. His main tactic is to make people do things by convincing them that they actually want to do, particularly because it's the right thing to do, and partly because they're doing it to please Carrot.
J-I-B
But Carrot is cunning in many other ways. His main tactic is to make people do things by convincing them that they actually want to do, particularly because it's the right thing to do, and partly because they're doing it to please Carrot.
J-I-B
Yes - she took him rather bossily under her wing in the first place, but he felt sorry for Errol whilst that was happening and that was the point that he began to see what a kind person she really was.
In a way Sybil's like a female Carrot only without the charisma. Everybody likes her because she's so open and believes in people (think how she is with Nobby) - she's the woman with a heart the size of a city (or paraphrase thereof - too busy to look up quotes) as Terry writes after doing the film noir thing when he introduces the drunk Vimes thinking the city was like a woman thing earlier in G!G! Sam is her hero, but she does see him realistically as well and conversely Sybil is Sam's hero as well because she sees him warts and all and loves him anyway.
They really are a sweet and well matched couple and little Sam is a very lucky little kid
In a way Sybil's like a female Carrot only without the charisma. Everybody likes her because she's so open and believes in people (think how she is with Nobby) - she's the woman with a heart the size of a city (or paraphrase thereof - too busy to look up quotes) as Terry writes after doing the film noir thing when he introduces the drunk Vimes thinking the city was like a woman thing earlier in G!G! Sam is her hero, but she does see him realistically as well and conversely Sybil is Sam's hero as well because she sees him warts and all and loves him anyway.
They really are a sweet and well matched couple and little Sam is a very lucky little kid
LessHero vanU said:
Tonyblack said:
As to Carrot being heir to the Throne. That's a bit like one of the Romanovs turning up today in Russia and expecting to be made Czar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_II_of_Bulgaria
Sjoerd3000 said:
LessHero vanU said:
Tonyblack said:
As to Carrot being heir to the Throne. That's a bit like one of the Romanovs turning up today in Russia and expecting to be made Czar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_II_of_Bulgaria
Thassim! Being A-M and that currently democracy is invested in Lord Vetanari, it could be that Carrots claim to the throne is recognised but denied as an instrument of government - and yet elected as a populist Patrician. That way Carrots destiny is fulfilled, without the risk that after a few generations that an unsuitable Very Tall Dwarf/Werewolf is in charge. The question is, who has the vote if Vetanari does engineer a bloodless succession? Would Vetanari keep it, making the new Patriach more of a figurehead, or risk allowing Carrot to have it? Or... opening it up to universal sufferage while making himself the head of a new guild - that off The Publicke Civyl Servants?
I have to partially disagree. Sybil has a great deal of charisma, but it's of a very conscious sort, whereas Carrot's is "unconscious." Sybil has to fight against society's first-glance perceptions of her as a "large, ancient-family aristocrat" by deliberately and purposely liking everyone she meets, including Nobby, trolls and dwarfs. This is why everyone (but the werewolves and certain stuffy AM nobs) likes her and why even Lord Vetinari inevitably bows to her will (although he generally agrees with everything she suggests). If she didn't have charisma, she never would win the respect and approval of these people and races...they would have perceived her efforts as insincere and pandering.
The only real difference between Carrot and Sybil, charismawise, is that Carrot's charisma is initially visual (you see tall, handsome Carrot and you immediately like him even if he doesn't talk to you) whereas Sybil's charisma is verbal--you're intimidated by her initially, but then once she starts talking to you and treating you as if you were a worthy person, you like her in spite of her appearance and pedigree.
J-I-B
The only real difference between Carrot and Sybil, charismawise, is that Carrot's charisma is initially visual (you see tall, handsome Carrot and you immediately like him even if he doesn't talk to you) whereas Sybil's charisma is verbal--you're intimidated by her initially, but then once she starts talking to you and treating you as if you were a worthy person, you like her in spite of her appearance and pedigree.
J-I-B
I have to partially disagree Jeff, in that charisma is largely visual and generally instantaneous, often for no good reason whatsoever. How about charm? You have too much to get over with Sybil for her to be truly charismatic, but with her natural goodness and sound qualities she charms you and also earns respect on several levels.
With Carrot it's visual/visceral and I think Angua's first impressions of him are very telling in that their attraction is on an 'animal' level whilst her human side struggles with why she's with him. Again without a quote but she basically took one look at him and saw him as something like an urban panther in a civic jungle - something like that anyway. So lots of lupine lust pheromones in that but it ties in with how the citizenry of A-M sees him too, so it's definitely charisma rather than charm as such. Sybil's personality persuades people to like her, Carrot doesn't even have to open his mouth in some cases because he's so 'right' in his natural habitat. This is also the reason why I'm trying to push the idea that he's only a dwarf by nurture - his true nature is king of the urban jungle and what city is more jungley than A-M?
How about charm? You have too much to get over with Sybil for her to be truly charismatic, but with her natural goodness and sound qualities she charms you and also earns respect on several levels. With Carrot it's visual/visceral and I think Angua's first impressions of him are very telling in that their attraction is on an 'animal' level whilst her human side struggles with why she's with him. Again without a quote but she basically took one look at him and saw him as something like an urban panther in a civic jungle - something like that anyway. So lots of lupine lust pheromones in that but it ties in with how the citizenry of A-M sees him too, so it's definitely charisma rather than charm as such. Sybil's personality persuades people to like her, Carrot doesn't even have to open his mouth in some cases because he's so 'right' in his natural habitat. This is also the reason why I'm trying to push the idea that he's only a dwarf by nurture - his true nature is king of the urban jungle and what city is more jungley than A-M?
Jan Van Quirm said:
I have to partially disagree Jeff, in that charisma is largely visual and generally instantaneous, often for no good reason whatsoever. How about charm? You have too much to get over with Sybil for her to be truly charismatic, but with her natural goodness and sound qualities she charms you and also earns respect on several levels.
How about charm? You have too much to get over with Sybil for her to be truly charismatic, but with her natural goodness and sound qualities she charms you and also earns respect on several levels.
J-I-B
Godwin's law
But the disc is full of muscley heroes, without much in the way of charisma. I remember reading somewhere that part of the reason Carrot is so popular is also because of a "punch that even trolls had learned to respect". He's the Captain Kirk of Discworld.
Now, Will Smith - pretty good looking, but when he starts talking I'm all his!
But the disc is full of muscley heroes, without much in the way of charisma. I remember reading somewhere that part of the reason Carrot is so popular is also because of a "punch that even trolls had learned to respect". He's the Captain Kirk of Discworld.
Now, Will Smith - pretty good looking, but when he starts talking I'm all his!
Hitler? That's below the belt!
Actually with him I think it's the exception that proves the rule - that or the little moustache! Possibly enchanted and certainly hypnotic that moustache, but really I think it's the shouting and having heavily armed big scary men behind you to create a charisma out of fear and/or intense scariness that if you're not on board something horrible will be happening to you. Or that there was some kind of mass hysteria involved because certainly in urban parts of Germany there was a kind of madness simply because the country had so many problems and the people just had very little hope left. Then this scrawny little git with a silly bit of facial hair but with a very good sound system comes along and seems to make a sense of sorts. 
In the end it's not visual or audible it's the whole thing. Sybil's appeal is more subtle and slower perhaps, whereas Carrot's is right up there and full on obvious - as a great right hook for instance.
Actually with him I think it's the exception that proves the rule - that or the little moustache!
Possibly enchanted and certainly hypnotic that moustache, but really I think it's the shouting and having heavily armed big scary men behind you to create a charisma out of fear and/or intense scariness that if you're not on board something horrible will be happening to you. Or that there was some kind of mass hysteria involved because certainly in urban parts of Germany there was a kind of madness simply because the country had so many problems and the people just had very little hope left. Then this scrawny little git with a silly bit of facial hair but with a very good sound system comes along and seems to make a sense of sorts. In the end it's not visual or audible it's the whole thing. Sybil's appeal is more subtle and slower perhaps, whereas Carrot's is right up there and full on obvious - as a great right hook for instance.
Nazis on a TP forum? How dreadful
To get back to the original subject, I'm a Sam Vimes woman; I always have been and always will be (I need the tee-shirt). He reminds me - not in every book, but quite often - of a kind of watchman in a popular film a good few years ago, and I quite fancied the actor who played that role, too!
I had never even considered Carrot as a possibility, but that might have something to do with my age! But I think that Carrot's unbending honesty, literalism, loyalty and all his other characeristics have helped to bring out a lot of the best in Sam Vimes and showcase it in the books.
Without forgetting Sybil, of course, who also finds the best in Sam, even if it means that he has to betray his own class - but she understands and forgives that, too. What a woman; above rubies!
Roll on "Snuff"!
I had never even considered Carrot as a possibility, but that might have something to do with my age! But I think that Carrot's unbending honesty, literalism, loyalty and all his other characeristics have helped to bring out a lot of the best in Sam Vimes and showcase it in the books.
Without forgetting Sybil, of course, who also finds the best in Sam, even if it means that he has to betray his own class - but she understands and forgives that, too. What a woman; above rubies!
Roll on "Snuff"!
