SPOILERS Carpe Jugulum Discussion *spoilers*

[poohcarrot]

It seems to me there are two Grannys developing in this thread.

The first Granny is a self-assured manipulator of people, who never loses, who can't be doing with thanking people and who is prepared to make the difficult decisions, regardless what other people think of her.

The second Granny is an unloved, self-conscious, emotionally vunerable, quitter.

I vote for Granny #1.

 

[raisindot]

It seems to me there are two Grannys developing in this thread.

The first Granny is a self-assured manipulator of people, who never loses, who can't be doing with thanking people and who is prepared to make the difficult decisions, regardless what other people think of her.

The second Granny is an unloved, self-conscious, emotionally vunerable, quitter.

I vote for Granny #1.

Well, your choice is not surprising.

But why must there be a "dark or light" choice (not meaning her own morality, but meaning having to choose either Granny 1 or Granny 2?) , as Granny would say? What can't her character in CJ be, as she says to Oats, "White speckled with gray?" Why can't she be a more 'evolved" Granny who combines elements of these two portrayals?

Granted, in the first three witches book Granny definitely is the "first granny." But the Granny of CJ, while still possessing the basic attributes of the "first Granny," displays, for the first time, an emotional depth and inner conflicts that weren't evidenced before. And it's this depth that makes the story compelling.

Pterry's best characters certainly do "evolve" to greater degrees of complexity and inner conflict. The Granny of CJ is a far more layered and complex character than the Granny of "Equal Rites." Just as the Sam Vimes of "The Fifth Elephant" and "Night Watch" is a completely different character than the Sam Vimes of "Guards! Guards!"

Indeed, one more argument I might add in favor of my interpretation is that, and the end, Granny is obviously incredibly relieved that Allison Weatherwax was never turned to the "dark side" by the Old Count. The "First Granny" would never have been worried about such a thing.

J-I-B

 

[Penfold]

Pterry's best characters certainly do "evolve" to greater degrees of complexity and inner conflict. The Granny of CJ is a far more layered and complex character than the Granny of "Equal Rites." Just as the Sam Vimes of "The Fifth Elephant" and "Night Watch" is a completely different character than the Sam Vimes of "Guards! Guards!"

Does anyone else think that there is a similarity between the Granny Weatherwax and Sam Vimes characters? Both have to take care that they don't overstep the mark (Granny watches herself all the time to make sure she doesn't 'go to the bad' and Vimes has an 'Inner Watchman' ensuring that he does not succumb to the watchman's equivalent). This appears to be a consistent theme for both characters throughout the different books where they take center stage.

Could this also be an extension of Sir Terry's nature keeping 'Terry's Thoughts' in check when exploring the satire in a subject? He consistently achieves his humour in a light-hearted, gentle but pointed manner where the easier literary route would be just as biting but nastier, not to say downright offensive to some people (National Lampoons "Bored of the Rings" and Tolkien fans, or much of Tom Sharpe's material, for example).

But why must their be a "dark or light" choice, as Granny would say? What can't her character in CJ be, as she says to Oats, "White speckled with gray?" Why can't she be a more 'evolved" Granny who combines elements of these two portrayals?

It's Granny herself who says it comes down to black and white (p.210) when her and Oats are discussing religion.

".....'And that's what your holy men discuss, is it?'
'Not usually. There is a very interesting debate raging at the moment about the nature of sin, for example'
'And what do they think? Against it, are they?'
'It's not as simple as that. Its not a black and white issue. There are so many shades of grey.'
'Nope.'
'Pardon?'
'There's no greys, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.'
'It's a lot more complicated than that....'
'No. It ain't. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they're getting worried that they won't like the truth.'

I don't think she can bring herself to believe that there is a middle ground when it boils down to right and wrong. It is these beliefs and inability to compromise her morals that allow her to make the 'right' choices, now matter how difficult, dangerous, or inconvenient the result of these decisions might be.

 

[raisindot]

(Responding to Penfold's last paragraph)

Did I really use "their" instead of "there"? Sic' the English police on me, please or make me a member of the grocer's Guild (I have edited the word since then, but the original stain remains in the requote!).

Also, my comment (which I've since edited, too) about the white or black thing wasn't supposed to refer to Granny's own morality, but a simple question of why did one have to choose either Granny 1 or Granny 2, and couldn't one instead create a Granny 3 with elements of both?

Sorry about the plodgy language in the original post.

J-I-B

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

I was wrong!

*passes out*

It seems to me there are two Grannys developing in this thread.

The first Granny is a self-assured manipulator of people, who never loses, who can't be doing with thanking people and who is prepared to make the difficult decisions, regardless what other people think of her.

The second Granny is an unloved, self-conscious, emotionally vunerable, quitter.

I vote for Granny #1.

ARRRRRGGGGHHHH!
We're practically agreeing almost entirely AGAIN!
Except.... sometimes I think Granny believes she doesn't win well enough, rather than never loses. *thank the gods I found something to carp about - I hope you appreciate this !*

Never, ever losing gets to be truly boring all around so there has to be some wobble factor for Granny in there, just so there's some edge to her many victories. In this book we get to see how Granny does have doubts and a few misgivings about her decisions and in fact this is all part of her obsession with trying not to go the route of Alison Weatherwax (so Black Aliss) - because Black Aliss got that way and became absolutely like your Granny #1 (yes I know Uncle gave her some absolution but she was mostly BAD). The minute Granny expects to win every time, knows she's invincible and wants to make people think like her/do what they're told the whole time, she's off the rails cackling away like a happy hen who's laying again after being eggbound for several days. She does know she's good, but hand in hand with that she knows she has to be sure that her own motives are good else she's off to become a gingerbread house resident and child roaster...? :twisted:

In CJ Terry shows us that she does indeed have qualms about her decisions and has a deep-seated need to keep herself on the straight and narrow. If she was wholly Granny #1 then she'd actually be more like the Count who's absolutely bent the other vampires to his idea of respectability and sensible eating plans and who brooks no opposition not even from his own undead flesh and blood...

Penfold - bang on the nose about everything, but especially the Terry type of satire. *hugs*
Ranters never prosper in my book (Hitler, Mussolini, Henry VIII, Goldfinger?) I really like Tom Sharpe's satire and boy did that need the comedy because it's bloody vicious and, like people who are always right, always wise and always win you begin at some stage to think - this is always the same, you know what's gonna happen and eventually you realise it's because this paragon isn't real. Or real enough in a fantasy...

Gandalf is more believable than Saruman because he admits he doesn't know everything and makes mistakes. Harry Potter is an annoying little git because he's always right despite people telling him he's wrong - I got completley bored by him by book 3. Even Vetinari can be be rather tedious when Terry sticks to the stereotypes but he shines when he's with Nobby and Colon because he's having to behave like a normal person - almost. Or at least think down to their level... Vimes and Granny would be insufferable if they always thought they were right and that their way had to be the right way and went around making sure that was what happened.

Please, please Terry never give us Granny #1 - keep on letting her think she might lose occasionally

 

[raisindot]

Please, please Terry never give us Granny #1 - keep on letting her think she might lose occasionally

Everything you said before this is extremely good, especially about Pooh's confession of error.



But I don't think we have to worry about a Granny #1 emerging, because a Granny #1 has nothing more to learn, and that's what Granny is always about--learning.

The Granny of "Wee Fee Men" is certainly not a Granny #1. She doesn't quite know how Tiffany was able to beat the Queen, and respects Tiffany for refusing to give the answer (I'm going to accept this at face value, and not believe that this was a headology 'test' on Granny's part), and nearly humbly asks Tiffany to tell her sometime, along with information about the Dromes, if she is predisposed to do so.

J-I-B

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Don't get me wrong Jeff - Granny is a proud, argumentative, arrogant know-it-all (or appears to know-it-all), but in the #1 & 2 Granny list, I could have also made a case for all the other qualities pooh's logged as being a part of Granny, even the always wins part - with one exception...

She is never, never, never a quitter. In CJ she's well aware that there's a lot at stake and she's uncertain of the outcome, but she never ran away as such (as Pooh says the gnarly ground is a sound-proof booth essentially).

In the Tiffany books (finally I've read them all ) she's only there as an examination board in a way - and so's Nanny some of the time. Tiffany impresses her for sure, but they're not in competition as such if that's what you mean, because of the 'I showed you how I do it - how you do it will be different' thing? Could even be a latent mothering instinct coming up perhaps? My own fluffy little heart sometimes dares to think that maybe she occasionally feels lonely on top of her self-built grumpy, violently independant and obstinately principled mountain-top and in Tiffany recognises someone who was like her 'at that age'? Perhaps it's admiration or recognition that she won't always be there but there'll be someone fairly like her to take up the reins - a kind of relief/jealousy thing that when her strength fails there'll be another who can pick it up the pieces and carry on? Granny's a realist at the end of the day - and when you're the best there is, it gets to be a bit of strain after a while, so it's good to know there's always another best-there-is-to-be coming up behind you to take up the slack when you're not around?

 

[poohcarrot]

Was Agness/Perdita actually bitten by a vampire?

Kakaze (being Kakaze) put forward an interesting theory based on the meaning of one word, stating that Agness/Perdita wasn't bitten, only scratched.

J-I-B (being J-I-B) agreed 100%.

Jan (being Jan) waffled on and on about scatches, abrasions, breaking the skin, saliva etc etc.

Well it's time for me to be me! 8)

You're all talking a load of tosh!

Granny reached out and touched the wounds on her (Agness/Perdita's) neck.
"Ah, I see," she said. "One of them bit you, yes?"
"Yes!" (replied Agness/Perdita)

Was Agness/Perdita actually bitten by a vampire? YES!!

 

[poohcarrot]

While I'm on a roll, here's;

ABSURD THEORY #2

Regardless of what J-I-B says about Granny being a better character because she is emotionally vunerable etc, the fact of the matter is that the Granny Weatherwax at the start of the book is NOT the usual Granny.

As I said, there appeared to be two Granny's.

This is because there ARE two Granny's in the book, exactly like there are two Agness' and two Oats'. The two Granny's both inhabit the same body. Granny #1 is the usual Granny and Granny #2 is the dark Granny. The dark Granny wants Granny to run away, embrace the dark and become a super powerful evil witch, just like Lilith and Alison (allegedly) Weatherwax did. However, Granny #1 can usually keep the dark Granny in check.

The reason that Granny at the start is acting out of character, is because the vampyrs have influenced her mind, bringing dark Granny to the fore.

In the gnarly ground she says she knows all about their power and how strong their minds are, despite never having met them.

On page 277 the usual Granny has an argument with the dark Granny and states;

The Count just let you in to torment me, but I've always known you were there. I've fought you every day of my life and you'll get no victory.
I know who you are now, Esmerelda Weatherwax. You don't scare me no more."

This is the moment in the book when Granny #2 disappears and the usual Granny (#1) returns.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

*There's gratitude!* Here I am agreeing with you all over the shop and you have a go at me (or was that just letting me set up your case for you (not to mention the quotes which I really hate looking up! :x ), you lazy git! :twisted:

To make wheals/weals the skin has to be compromised in some way - scratched or grazed somehow. Her skin had been scratched. The villagers saw the marks and that's why Agnes wakes up to a stake and hammer, because they're not about to take any chances.

For me that's positively abrupt!

... in the #1 & 2 Granny list, I could have also made a case for all the other qualities pooh's logged as being a part of Granny, even the always wins part - with one exception...

The one exception being the quitting which I'm assuming is what all of us are choking over.

Let's move it on since you've raised the stakes, on the basis that Granny #2 is normally buried much, much deeper than Agnes' and Oat's more assertive spare personas and, as you say, look at the magpies that have been moving in around Granny's cottage to destabilise her enough to let Granny #2 out...?

We know about the transmogification into bats thing for vampires so, along with all the other de-sensitising exercises, do we think that the magpies who stole Granny's invite to little Esme's naming day were actually the Magpyrs (who'd turned into the magpies), or the Magpyrs trying out a little Borrowing exercise of their own?

 

[poohcarrot]

It was the Count directly going into Granny's mind who released Dark Granny. I believe the quote I posted showed that.

The magpies just act as the vampyrs eyes and ears. How they control the magpies, your guess is as good as mine. (BTW I don't think I ever mentioned magpies, did I? )

But was Granny quitting, or leaving under the influence of Dark Granny to become a super-evil witch in a big city, just like her sister did?

 

[poohcarrot]

swreader

While I remember, you were complaining that at the end, Granny didn't thank Oats.

But she did thank him. She gave him her pheonix feather as a thank you present.

Surely actions speak louder than words, don't they?

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

It was the Count directly going into Granny's mind who released Dark Granny. I believe the quote I posted showed that.

The magpies just act as the vampyrs eyes and ears. How they control the magpies, your guess is as good as mine. (BTW I don't think I ever mentioned magpies, did I? )

But was Granny quitting, or leaving under the influence of Dark Granny to become a super-evil witch in a big city, just like her sister did?

No you didn't mention the magpies - very careless of you!

I think it's the ears and eyes option too, which in that case is scarily close to Borrowing.... Maybe Witches and Vampires are more akin than we think? The thing with the magpies taking the invite though is pretty telling in a way, as that was the main reason Granny was so 'easy' to manipulate because she was angry and hurt over not getting an official invitation and that set her off brooding over all the things that irritate her about being the best there is.

I thought we'd already agreed that she never quit at all. You said that she'd gone up to the gnarly ground to get away from the spies before she ever set eyes on the Count which means he'd already got to her before she showed up for her 'pasting' at the castle. If that's the case then the Lily and Aliss options never came into her equation - she just needed to work out how to use the vampires advantages against them so no, she never did quit and she was not ever going to leave - Granny #2 can't beat Granny#1 :twisted:

 

[raisindot]

Was Agness/Perdita actually bitten by a vampire?

ot;]
Granny reached out and touched the wounds on her (Agness/Perdita's) neck.
"Ah, I see," she said. "One of them bit you, yes?"
"Yes!" (replied Agness/Perdita)

Was Agness/Perdita actually bitten by a vampire? YES!!

One can get bitten without having one's skin broken or being infected with spittle, blood, vampire essence, whatever.

Pterry chose the word "weal" for a reason. He could have chosen "holes," "pits," "lacerations." But he didn't. He wanted us to know that Vlad had tried to do the full infecting vampire bit, but Granny's influence (perhaps combined with his own attraction from Agnes) kept him from doing a complete chomp. If Vlad had really bitten and infected Agnes, Granny would not have needed to ask the question--she would have known because her blood would be inside Agnes. It's a more conversational question with a quick answer that doesn't go into the forensic details.

J-I-B

 

[raisindot]

While I'm on a roll, here's;

ABSURD THEORY #2

..chop chop chop...
On page 277 the usual Granny has an argument with the dark Granny and states;

The Count just let you in to torment me, but I've always known you were there. I've fought you every day of my life and you'll get no victory.
I know who you are now, Esmerelda Weatherwax. You don't scare me no more."

This is the moment in the book when Granny #2 disappears and the usual Granny (#1) returns.

I'll agree with you here that this is when Granny 1 began to "come back" (although it's still far from certain whether Granny 1 would succeed at that point), and I can agree that there are two grannies

However I don't agree that it's the influence of the Count's mental telepathy at the beginning that caused thoughts of "evil Granny" to plague "normal Granny" at the beginning.

If we want to get into absurb theorizing, one could flip around this theory of "pre-bite vampire influences" to claim that Granny's feeling of isolation made her subsconsciously want the vampires to come, and that made her send out headology telepathy that influenced Verence to invite the Magpyrs to the naming, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

J-I-B

 

[raisindot]

BTW, everyone, this is becoming a GREAT discussion thread! There must be something about Granny Weatherwax seems to bring the theorists and philosophers in everyone. She almost seems like a literary litmus test in some ways---we all create what we think is the Granny persona we prefer (or infer) and use the text to build a case.

Too bad we couldn't all do this in a "live" book group setting with mugs of scumble strewn about.

And we've barely even begun to talk about Nanny or Magrat yet!

J-I-B

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

On the matter of turning and biting

Leaving Discworld out of it and looking at rather less arcane vampire canonical info For a vampire to turn somebody into a vampire (so someone like Countess Magpyr who didn't start out as a vampire) you have to be well and truly bitten - which Granny was of course. To be turned rather than 'just' killed, it's like when Louis (Pitt) gets bitten by Lestat (Cruise) in Interview with the Vampire. IN the 'original' Dracula tales I think you had to get bitten 3 times in as many nights or some such nonsense but the common denominator in this is that it must include some kind of transference between vamp and victim. Wiki is of some help here

After Dracula learns of Van Helsing and the others' plot against him, he takes revenge by visiting—and biting— Mina at least three times. Dracula also feeds Mina his blood, creating a spiritual bond between them to control her. The only way to forestall this is to kill Dracula first. Mina slowly succumbs to the blood of the vampire that flows through her veins, switching back and forth from a state of consciousness to a state of semi-trance during which she is telepathically connected with Dracula. It is this connection that they start to use to deduce Dracula's movements. It is only possible to detect Dracula's surroundings when Mina is put under hypnosis by Van Helsing. This ability gradually gets weaker as the group makes their way to Dracula's castle.

So with the passages in CJ that pooh has referred to - we know that Granny asked and Agnes agreed that she was bitten. In Granny's case in Lancre it was more than enough to 'turn' her by the Count's/Terry's rules of engagement. In Agnes' case Vlad did bite her (a bit) and she did make the connection with Granny's blood being in the ascendent over the vampires, but Vlad didn't bite her hard enough or long enough to 'turn' her and he was anyway under Granny's influence so Agnes wouldn't have got turned into a vamp at all.

Everyone happy with that?

If we want to get into absurb theorizing, one could flip around this theory of "pre-bite vampire influences" to claim that Granny's feeling of isolation made her subsconsciously want the vampires to come, and that made her send out headology telepathy that influenced Verence to invite the Magpyrs to the naming, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It was the Count making the magpies nick Granny's flashy gold invite wot did it after Verence had been stupid enough to invite them to Esme's naming day.

So... Nanny & Magrat? :twisted: With them we're seeing them in full flood at their best in single-minded mode. Nanny's mostly full on matriarch after having a half-hearted fiddle with being the other one and Magrat's still admirably showing her claws as Witch Queen and fiercely defending her young, whilst poor ole Verence is off getting pie-eyed with the Feegles. What it does show I suppose is that being too sure of who you are ain't always such a good thing around vampires? Someone should tell Buffy

Discuss

 

[poohcarrot]

However I don't agree that it's the influence of the Count's mental telepathy at the beginning that caused thoughts of "evil Granny" to plague "normal Granny" at the beginning.

The best one (the Count) nearly got me at the cottage. My cottage!
I've never felt anything like it, Gytha. He's had hundreds of years to get good.

Who's to say the Count didn't succeed? All that would have been needed was a little mind tweak.

Does anyone actually believe that not receiving an invitation effected Granny more than being targetted in her own cottage?

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Does anyone actually believe that not receiving an invitation effected Granny more than being targetted in her own cottage?

It's a combination of being targetted and the invite, with the latter tipping the balance 'cos it's so personal to Granny.

Plus you're looking at it like a bloke pooh - not receiving an invitation was a huge insult and snub from both Magrat and Verence, because in a way they're Granny's family, especially Magrat. Just because Granny can come and go as she pleases doesn't mean she's immune to insults that becomes set rigid in the 'It's the pinciple' game - "I'm not going where I'm not welcome/wanted - I wouldn't want to impose... "

Didn't she more or less say that in the book - if she didn't I bet she said something v. similar...

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

An afterthought on that (again from a female PoV).

CJ's all about choices - choosing not to behave like a vampire, even if you are one; life and death choices; choosing your own path to grace through the petty word-chopping of people who supposedly 'share' your beliefs; being fat and sensible with a stroppy thin person inside trying to get out and cause trouble...

Granny's having to make choices all the time - how hurtful would it be to think she hadn't been chosen to go to an important family as well as national event in one of your best friend's life? So that's the lever for all the rest of the Magpyr's influences to feed on the anger, resentment and yes, insecurity or self-doubt, call it what you like. Then all the rest of being feeling unappreciated and uncared for when she does so much for everyone can gather momentum and leave Granny exposed to the Magpyr's poisons.