SPOILERS Carpe Jugulum Discussion *spoilers*

[Jan Van Quirm]

Not really Ponder - nobody's pretending to be anything they're not in Carpe Jugulam. In a way this is about Witch Pride; Vampire Pride and Omnism Pride (although Oats is pretty conflicted at first, but his faith holds to what he believes) - even Igor Pride. Everyone in this are being true to what they are and proud of it, even if they're an arrogant, egotistic, photophobic, predatory bloodsucker

 

[Ponder Stibbons]

Actually, i meant the bit where borogrovia thinks its the best, and the other countries all think they're the best.

"I mean, they're liars, but they're our liars!"

 

[swreader]

Actually, i meant the bit where borogrovia thinks its the best, and the other countries all think they're the best.

"I mean, they're liars, but they're our liars!"

Again, not really--without major distortions of both books. In CJ, it's true that the Vampyrs think that they are superior to all the other races (human or otherwise). But that's not at all the kind of superiority claim that is a minor theme in Monstrous Regiment. The key to the use of the vampires in this book is (as Granny says of sin--that it all starts from thinking of people as things) is that they are a personification of evil--even though Terry has a good deal of fun with his "evolved vampires" who have learned, apparently, to be immune to most of the traditional means of killing vampires. Instead they start off as a kind of parody of the traditional vampire--but with the vampires' justification of the need for blood and the warped mind-set that justifies their actions as the Nazis and many others justified the genocide they committed--by making the victims "things", less than human.

 

[Ponder Stibbons]

Oh, ok. I see.
So they're looking at the vampires' attitude like they're keeping humans as slaves. It doesnt matter that they're different species(insofar as that goes), they're still sentient beings.
They already know its bad, but they still do it, which is worse than not knowing.

 

[raisindot]

The key to the use of the vampires in this book is (as Granny says of sin--that it all starts from thinking of people as things) is that they are a personification of evil...but with the vampires' justification of the need for blood and the warped mind-set that justifies their actions as the Nazis and many others justified the genocide they committed--by making the victims "things", less than human.

It's more than that, though. The Magpyrs truly view the "old school" vampires as monsters, and themselves as civilized and 'modern.' Genocide of humans is not part of their strategy--they know it means no sense to slaughter all of your good at once. While they seek power, they also believe their way of getting blood--through a systematic, well-ordered approach built on convincing the people they rule that it's worth if for humans to sacrifice a few people at a time to save the majority of the population--is a much more "humane" way of ruling than the Old Count's way of "flying into bedrooms at night." It's really only when people start resisting them that their civilized veneer begins to go away and their true greed for power shows itself. I think that's really the "big joke" PTerry is making here--that the most evil monsters aren't the barbarians and banshees who just kill in deadly improvised spasms--the true evil people are those who institutionalize and systemize their evil acts.

J-I-B

 

[raisindot]

Okay, to open up another thread here.

In at CJ, Lord and Ladies, and Witches Abroad at least, Nanny seems to be most ineffectual of all the witches. Magrat takes down an elf or two and a vampire. Perdita is able to resist the Magpyrs. But Nanny is completely powerless against the 'mind assault' of the elves and vampires. She doesn't physically 'kill' any of the enemies in these books. She doesn't exhibit any real magic or strong headology (other than marshalling Lancrean mobs). She does watch Granny's back, and is her counsel, but she isn't necessary for the defeat of these enemies, and, in the case of LL, her actions cause a deus ex machina that prevents what would have been a total vanquishing of the enemy.

Thoughts? Contrary comments? Poohisms?



J-I-B

 

[Tonyblack]

You now have just one week to read or reread Wintersmith for the discussion starting on Monday 3rd May.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Not much time just now but I think Nanny has more of a fulcrum role in the coven dynamics and is there to balance Granny with Magrat and/or Agnes-Perdita.

It's to do with the Maiden, Mother and Hag configuration and on the Carrot syndrome basis once again Granny is too good because she is or could be all three at once. So in the original coven, the Mother (Nanny of course) and the Maid have to be really strong in their role. So Nanny's a kind of super witch mum so much so that you could never in a million years see her as a Maid, though she is at the age where she'd make a pretty good crone... :twisted:

Her problem in this is that Esme's the archetypal crone and, because Nanny's far too good herself at being the Mother, she's got an identity crisis and it's only when she knows Esme's back in the configuration again that she really pulls herself back together and starts to behave like a Mother again - gets Magrat and baby Esme out of the Castle, has Shawn and Jason rally the populace and storm the Castle really badly, but enough to make the vampires panic (and did she also get the Feegles to fetch Verence out too?). There's more, but no time. Back later to chew it over some more!

 

[Ponder Stibbons]

Nanny role as Mother is kind of like this(i think. Correct me if im wrong): The mother is like a mother(duh!) to everyone, so everyone does what she says(except Shawn) but still love her as a mother. So she has quite a lot of power over people she knows, which comes in useful with friendly creatures perceived as monstes(ie. the feegles, king of fairies, luggage) which are still nevertheless quite scary when they want to be and come in useful. Unfortunately, her openness is also a drawback to mind kiboshes.

 

[swreader]

Okay, to open up another thread here.

In at CJ, Lord and Ladies, and Witches Abroad at least, Nanny seems to be most ineffectual of all the witches. Magrat takes down an elf or two and a vampire. Perdita is able to resist the Magpyrs. But Nanny is completely powerless against the 'mind assault' of the elves and vampires. She doesn't physically 'kill' any of the enemies in these books. She doesn't exhibit any real magic or strong headology (other than marshalling Lancrean mobs). She does watch Granny's back, and is her counsel, but she isn't necessary for the defeat of these enemies, and, in the case of LL, her actions cause a deus ex machina that prevents what would have been a total vanquishing of the enemy.

While Nanny isn't one of my favorite characters, Jeff, I think you are quite mistaken in calling her "the most ineffectual of all the witches." Just in this novel, for example, she takes charge immediately when they discover Granny is "missing" and promptly gets Magrat and the baby out of the castle and organizes Verence's rescue.

She knows she's not good at Granny's headology--but she's very good with people. and she's absolutely ruthless and clear-sighted about what's necessary to save the kingdom. She suggests, quite seriously, to Agnes that one way to save the kingdom might be marrying Vlad and killing him. As she says, This is Lancre we're talkin' about. If we was men, we'd be talking about layin' down our lives for the country. As women, we can talk about laying down." She quite deliberately gets herself and Magrat (and baby) out of the castle because they are vulnerable in a way that Agnes isn't.

Once they get to the castle, she takes charge with Igor as her right hand. "Now we'll try things my way," she said. I'm not good at thinkin' like Granny but I'm bloody good at actin' like me. Headology's for them as can handle it. Let's kick some bat."

She and Igor dispose of a raft of "bats", starting with Cryptopher and including those lesser Vampires killed by lemons, stakes, holy water until they run out of supplies. At the final confrontation, the only survivors of the vampire pack are the original family, minus the Countess that Magrat disposed of and the one apparently disposed of by Greebo. Nanny knows that Granny needs time to get to the castle and do whatever is necessary and it's her job to give Granny that time--and if Granny can't save them, she'll have done all that's possible.

Granny and Nanny are a team--in this and all the other books. Granny would presumably have died in L&L if Nanny hadn't figured out that she wasn't dead but in the bee swarm.

Nanny is a people person, and at that she is much better than Granny (as Granny notes in Masquerade. And because she is, she and Granny are absolutely necessary to each other.

 

[Ponder Stibbons]

Ah....that's a point. I know its deviating from the topic, but what would happen if someone went borrowing till their body rotted and then came back, what would happen? *shudders*

 

[Willem]

I'd say your body would wither away first (malnutrition, dehydration). Then you'd die and start rotting. The question is, what happens to your mind if the body dies while borrowing?

Let's say you've got a witch locked up as a prisoner of some sort, in a dungeon without food or water. She's almost dead, but manages to send her mind borrowing into a nearby spider. After that, the body dies. We know that the mind can 'forget' it was human but that this usually takes a while. So we've got the fully aware mind of the witch inhabiting a spider. Could she return and become a zombie? Is she trapped inside the spider? Can she leave the spider and inhabit some other creature? Some other possibilities?
I'd say she could go out and borrow some other creatures for a while, until her mind gradually melts away without a tie to the mortal plane. At what point would Death show up though?

The only thing we do know, is that the person that imprisoned the witch better watch out for spiders laying eggs in his ear

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

The thing to remember with Borrowing with the Witch is the sign of course - "I ain't dead!". Only the mind is absent - the body is in a state of hibernation so slowed right down which presumably is the purpose behind the sign, as things like breathing and metabolics are slowed right down so it's possible to be interpreted as being dead. Like in other hibernating animals this state can preserve the body for quite a long time - several weeks or even a season and in animals they can survive on stored body fats etc (although apparently bears and higher mammals do 'wake up' occasionally for some essential functions but much less often than usual)

The sign tells anyone who finds the body that the Witch isn't dead and so what does that mean? First off of course they don't get a funeral and once someone knows there's a problem, then another Witch would presumably be sent for and they would feed and look after body until the mind came back - if it didn't then eventually I suppose yes it would start rotting.

We still only have the Esk example of what happens when the mind can't leave the animal host. Granny knew where Esk was so she went back to the eagle's territory and found it in a terrible state, unable to fly and falling about so presumably both the Esk mind and the eagle mind were at odds in some way, which physically affected the eagle's body. This happened after a day with Esk - presumably Granny's mind is far tougher so she can stay longer without getting overrun, but in CJ she and the Count both knew that she couldn't maintain control indefinitely.

As to when Death would come for her - I would hope he came a.s.a.p after the mind had been trapped beyond rescue. It's a horrible thing to think of your mind wandering around without a body to live in. Also, don't forget that Death cuts the soul away from the dead body - the soul is effectively shackled to the husk/corpse. I think that Borrowing is in part to do with someone having the ability to send their 'awareness' out of their body, whilst they're still living, so the body is important and this is why Granny 'ain't dead' because her soul/awareness/mind is still linked to her hibernating body...*

Another aspect of Borrowing - we do have another adept in Miss Treason, the ancient witch in Wintersmith, who's blind and hijacks various creatures, including Tiffany and often uses several creatures at once to use their eyesight and nothing else. For this Miss Treason doesn't 'leave' her body at all as Terry has her carrying on with everday tasks like weaving or giving judgements to the local people. So is that a refined, pared down kind of Borrowing that doesn't involve so much willpower? Won't go into that so much as we'll be talking about that next week of course

* Gods I think I've been roleplaying far too much recently!

 

[raisindot]

* Gods I think I've been roleplaying far too much recently!

Good lord...I think I'm going to have to get the Cliff's Notes versions...your theories are way beyond the mental capacity of my primitive brain cells...



J-I-B

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Well I am virtually a full-time Elf elsewhere - been Borrowing too much see!

 

[swreader]

Let me correct a few misstatements about borrowing. The only witch that Terry tells us about who regularly uses a type of borrowing is Miss Treason in Wintersmith, but Terry seems to be using her borrowing as simply a device for helping a blind and deaf very old witch continue to function.

We do know that unless one has a great deal of strength, a witch's body can apparently die. When Agnes suggests that Nanny locate the missing Granny by borrowing, Nanny's response is significant:

"I don't borrow as a rule," said Nanny firmly. "I ain't got Esme's self-discipline. I gets . . . involved. I was a rabbit for three whole days until our Jason went and fetched Esme and she brought me back. Much longer and there wouldn't have been a me to come back.

In other words, one can become so intertwined (as Esk almost did) that they are no longer capable of being brought back. And Nanny isn't about to tinker with trying to bring Granny back against her will when they find her in the cave. Terry really isn't interested in the more mundane aspects of borrowing (like what happens to the body if you don't come back). Rather, he uses borrowing significantly for only two witches--and for quite different reasons. Miss Treason uses a form of borrowing to aid her in her daily activities. Granny uses it occasionally to spy out the lay of the land, but mainly to escape from boredom or something she doesn't want to think about (such as the presence of vampires who are trying to beat down the walls that protect her inner self).

Terry simply isn't interested in the "what if"s of what would happen to a body left without the spiritual essence too long, and doesn't deal with it.

 

[Tonyblack]

Getting back to the subject of Nanny (as it was brought up) - I don't care for her much myself. She reminds me of people I know who use friendliness as a sort of weapon to gain information about people.

But i do admire her in her relationship with Granny. She is rather like Sancho Panza to Granny's Don Quixote in the novel by Cervantes. She looks out for Granny and makes sure she doesn't go too far and she's loyal to her friend.

I agree that Nanny did take over and reluctantly took the role of leader when it looked like Granny was incapacitated. She was quite successful too in getting rid of some of the vampires - I think she would have fought them to the death to try and protect the others - or to give Granny a chance to get her act together.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Like you're say Tony, there's the other side of mothering too - the protective part of it. Female animals can and do fight to the death for their own and when Nanny and Magrat first 'fled' the castle with baby Esme I was like 'what the hell are they going to Uberwald for?' but of course they weren't running away at all, they were making a tactical withdrawal in order to make a calculated assault on the vampire's own 'nest'.

Another mother trait with Nanny is a refusal to take sides within her 'family' and to love everyone the same? When Granny and Magrat clash it's always Nanny who's the mediator - like in Witches Abroad and the wet hen incident...

 

[raisindot]

I agree that Nanny did take over and reluctantly took the role of leader when it looked like Granny was incapacitated. She was quite successful too in getting rid of some of the vampires

Did Nanny herself actually kill any of the vampires? I think that Igor staked and watered them all--Nanny just held the jugs and woodwork. I think that's a part of her character--she's not a violent or "active" person--she supervises those who do the action. In any case, the preliminary Nanny/Igor attacks on the vampires at the Count's castle were just skirmishes. If they hadn't done anything there, the Phoenix would have taken care of them all by itself (another question: Why didn't the Phoenix go after the Magpyrs? Did it know that they were holding Magrant and the baby hostage? Or was this perhaps a narrative hole?).

And in terms of becoming 'leader,' she never would have become leader if Agnes hadn't taken her away from the Count's influence early in the book. WIthout Agnes, Nanny would have been fresh meat.

J-I-B

 

[swreader]

Like you're say Tony, there's the other side of mothering too - the protective part of it. Female animals can and do fight to the death for their own and when Nanny and Magrat first 'fled' the castle with baby Esme I was like 'what the hell are they going to Uberwald for?' but of course they weren't running away at all, they were making a tactical withdrawal in order to make a calculated assault on the vampire's own 'nest'.

Another mother trait with Nanny is a refusal to take sides within her 'family' and to love everyone the same? When Granny and Magrat clash it's always Nanny who's the mediator - like in Witches Abroad and the wet hen incident...

Jan, please get your facts right. Nanny is the Mother in the group, but that does not mean she behaves like Supermom, or even Supergran Mom. Nanny plays favorites, and her family move up and down in her estimation as indicated by the placement of the trinkets or pictures they have brought her to adorn her house. (pp. 155-6) The fact that she insists on her daughter-in-laws cleaning her house, etc. hardly makes her a model mom. Nanny is the Mother in the Coven because she could hardly be the maiden, but in reality, she is much closer to an embodiment of an Earth Goddess.

Further, when Nanny and company leave the castle at Lancre, Nanny's original plan is to go down to the plains, but when the find water across the road (p.278), Nanny decides they need to head for Slake (which has a good strong stone building). They end up at the vampire's castle (318)because they are caught by the Old Master's spell for bringing people to Don't-go-near-the Castle, which Igor has the keys to. Strategic retreat -- my foot! It's her ability to think quickly on her feet that leads them to stash Magrat and the Baby in Igor's quarters while Nanny & Igor start preparing to defend the castle against the returning vampires.