SPOILERS Carpe Jugulum Discussion *spoilers*

[swreader]

Did Nanny herself actually kill any of the vampires? I think that Igor staked and watered them all--Nanny just held the jugs and woodwork. I think that's a part of her character--she's not a violent or "active" person--she supervises those who do the action. In any case, the preliminary Nanny/Igor attacks on the vampires at the Count's castle were just skirmishes. If they hadn't done anything there, the Phoenix would have taken care of them all by itself (another question: Why didn't the Phoenix go after the Magpyrs? Did it know that they were holding Magrant and the baby hostage? Or was this perhaps a narrative hole?).

And in terms of becoming 'leader,' she never would have become leader if Agnes hadn't taken her away from the Count's influence early in the book. WIthout Agnes, Nanny would have been fresh meat.

J-I-B

Nanny is in charge at the Castle--not Igor, who must have a Master. She dispatches one vampire at Lancre castle before they leave by getting him to bite on a lemon (although Margaret insists they haven't enough time to cut off his head.) And she's previously tried the garlic remedy. At the vampire castle, she is lowering a vial of Holy Water when Igor warns her of the changing weather. And she asks Igor for more stakes, or holy water when he reports they're out of everything but an orange (P. 376). There is no point in her request unless she's been using them. None of this fits with your attempt to downplay her significant role. She is the one who decides to leave Agnes ( the only one of the witches who is protected }in order to save Magrat and the baby by use of herself and Igor.

It seems perfectly obvious to me that Nanny (as quoted previously) is planning to "kick bat" at the castle. She hopes Granny is coming, but if not, I think that she and Igor would die in the attempt to save Magrat and the baby.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

SW Reader - I meant the coven not the mother-in-law side of it! That's just normal family dynamics.

As for the rest - that's just faulty memory and making things up as I go - been around pooh far too long now However you can't have it both ways - she's either fleeing to the plains but thwarted or thinking on her feet and dealing with stuff as it crops up. She's got her eye on the defensive game with least danger to Magrat and baby Esme all down the line - what's quickest and safest in other words. Keep them stashed somewhere safe whilst she and Igor do the rearguard thing. She's a running fight lady not a strategist. If vampires get killed along the way that's just tough

 

[raisindot]

Nanny is in charge at the Castle--not Igor, who must have a Master. She dispatches one vampire at Lancre castle before they leave by getting him to bite on a lemon (although Margaret insists they haven't enough time to cut off his head.) And she's previously tried the garlic remedy. At the vampire castle, she is lowering a vial of Holy Water when Igor warns her of the changing weather. And she asks Igor for more stakes, or holy water when e reports they're out of everything but an orange (P. 376). There is no point in her request unless she's been using them.

I'll concede the lemon, but Nanny knows that lemons don't kill vampires, they just bother them...just enough to get away. That's far from violent. And that she's lowering holy water and asking for more doesn't mean she actually was using them. In fact, PTerry makes it quite clear that she didn't do ANY of the staking. When the vampires invade Igor's chamber, it is HE who stakes them, while Nanny stands aside at the wall watching. So, it's never clear whether she took 'action,' although in her supervisory role she did "manage" the battle.

None of this fits with your attempt to downplay her significant role. She is the one who decides to leave Agnes ( the only one of the witches who is protected }in order to save Magrat and the baby by use of herself and Igor.

It seems perfectly obvious to me that Nanny (as quoted previously) is planning to "kick bat" at the castle. She hopes Granny is coming, but if not, I think that she and Igor would die in the attempt to save Magrat and the baby.

Jan is right. She only chooses to kick bat when she discovers she really doesn't have much of an alternative choice. Her initial plan was to escape the battle entirely by heading for the plains, leaving Granny, Agnes and all of her children and family to the fate of the Magpyrs solely to protect Magrat and Esme. Until the floods change her narrative destiny, her allegiance to witches is stronger than her allegiance to her community--hardly a commendable "Mother" quality.

And I'm not downplaying her role--I'm commenting on her lack of "magical power" and importance in the final resolution of the vampire-human conflict. Everything that she and Igor did had no effect on this outcome. They could have made it to the plains, or hidden in the crypt of the Magpyrn castle and not killed a single vampire and Granny, Oats, and the Phoenix would still have made it to the castle and killed them all on her own. And in terms of having the witches' power to "protect the edge," she clearly failed in the beginning by becoming so easily hypnotized by the Magpyrs that she needed the "maiden" witch to rescue her.

J-I-B

 

[Ponder Stibbons]

Sorry to borrow again, but in fact, Jan, in Equal Rites, Esk visits Granny while she's borrowing and finds that she's turned blue. :twisted: (oops)
I always thought what Terry meant when he said Miss Treason was the best at Borrowing was that she could borrow and control herself at the same time, like Granny did for a few seconds in Lords and Ladies with the horse.
When you say about Death cutting the connection, do you mean like Mad Ysabelle( :twisted: ) in teh Light Fantastic cutting the blue threads?

Ok, back to the topic :arrow:

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

*thwacks Ponder*
1. Mort and Ysabelle? (does she?) do the cutting away of the spirits (the spectral blue thread yes) just like Death does in the earliest books - in the later books Terry doesn't have to make such a big deal of it. The whole point of the scythe or sword of Death is to sever the last connection of the spirit/awareness to the corpse.
2. It's winter and the fire's gone out - of course she's blue! Granny knows what she's doing and comes back pretty quickly, but that is the point at which the 'I ain't dead' placard comes into the picture as Terry realises there's a problem.
3. Miss Treason has to wait a bit - however, how old is she? She's possibly twice as old as Granny perhaps so she's extra good at it - also who trained Granny to borrow? Speculation on this point in the next thread please..

Jeff - I don't think we do agree that much. Nanny is the Mother (Earth Goddess is closer for Nanny as swreader says although there is another more modern interpretation of the mother role as Granny would be if that was her take on it, except birthing kids has nothing to do with it aside from adding a tag on the mechanics? ) Earth Goddesses fight any way they can - fast and loose or hard and dirty with the eye on inflicting as much damage on their opponents and the least on themselves and their charges. It's more about survival than winning. Hence the strategic withdrawal description to the plains as Plan A - if you know you can't win 'inside' then get out and do it from outside where you can get help if you need it. She wasn't running she was evading manipulation so she could keep fighting - on her terms.

Females aren't necessarily as deadly or as brave as the male but they're a whole lot sneakier and nastier...

 

[poohcarrot]

As for the rest - that's just faulty memory and making things up as I go - been around pooh far too long now

...but I've been doing it all my life, so I've got the hang of it by now.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

*lost in admiration of the master...*

 

[raisindot]

But they're a whole lot sneakier and nastier...

Females aren't necessarily as deadly or as brave as the male...

Oh, I don't know about that. No man could put up with the bravery involved in delivering a child and Livia (Augustus's wife) was pretty deadly when it came to killing off family members (if you believe Tacitus).

But they're a whole lot sneakier and nastier...

Wouldn't even categorize that as opinion but as an irrefutable fact!



J-I-B

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Oh Jeff!

C'mon! :twisted: Capitulation so soon? You can maintain and defend your stance on Nanny much better than that surely!? 8)

 

[raisindot]

Oh Jeff!

C'mon! :twisted: Capitulation so soon? You can maintain and defend your stance on Nanny much better than that surely!? 8)

Na-ah. I'm too afraid of getting sneaked and nastied upon.

J-I-B

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Dang! - you're no fun at all!

 

[Ponder Stibbons]

Thanks, jan, on the borrowing thing. And the whack

Well, earth goddess Nanny Ogg; discriminates upon offerings, and fights like someone who's got 6billion year old family members

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

fights like someone who's got 6billion year old family members

Some of them volcanic?

 

[Ponder Stibbons]

In what way?

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Well, earth goddess Nanny Ogg; discriminates upon offerings, and fights like someone who's got 6billion year old family members

Was there any plant life, bacteria or even single-celled gloopy animals around 6 billion years ago (certainly not if you subscribe to Creationism)? - as for vertebrates... Nope!

 

[Ponder Stibbons]

I didnt say they have to be vertaebrates. Or even breathing

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Well with pandemic vulcanism the ash would be at least apatosaurus high so I can see how she only knows how to fight dirty!

 

[Tonyblack]

See, Cool Middle Name - the thread works just fine.

 

[Cool Middle Name]

Thank you ^^ I know why now, the link led me to the Minisites version and clicking Reply led me to the index.

Well, I reckon Terry Pratchett encapsulated the philosophical dilemmas Granny and Mightily Oats were facing against themselves in this novel. He entertained us with the Bi-polarity of Agnes/Perdita and the Oggish humor of Nanny.

The ideas about 'Right and wrong' brought the mind to much consideration of identity and purpose, and practical common sense. We see one argument of Oats with himself and during that he almost panicked about the truth of Om.
It was a nice touch to 'Make a big light' with the Om-ble, and see his belief in the god rise to the surface (without requiring a booming voice from the sky).
Carpe Jugulum's Omnian beliefs were an obvious parody of Christianity, so it wouldnt be surprising for it to have recieved much criticism because of this. However, I'm an athiest and I can't deny that this was a thoroughly engrossing, entertaining story.

Am I the only one to notice that Twilight carries many elements from this book (the whole Vlad being attracted to Agnes because of her mind being blocked thing, the 'Meeting Family, 'Flying Through The Forests' etc.)? I wonder if Stephenie Meyer had ever read Carpe Jugulum before she wrote the books. Or are these in practically all vampire stories?

 

[Tonyblack]

I've never been inclined to read the Twilight books, so I couldn't comment on that. But in some ways, Terry is writing a parody on vampire books and films with this book. All the stuff we 'know' about vampires and how they can be destroyed is turned upside down somewhat. In many ways all vampire stories are going to be reflections of each other.