SPOILERS Discussion of Good Omens, the series
- Thread starter Dotsie
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...Um. That's not any evidence of breaking any Commandment or any of the Seven Deadly Sins, surely? 
Quite the opposite. Music is supposed to be a pleasure unto any deity. The Bible (or at least the Old Testament) is full of examples of various people singing and playing musical instruments to show both joy and sadness.
Quite the opposite. Music is supposed to be a pleasure unto any deity. The Bible (or at least the Old Testament) is full of examples of various people singing and playing musical instruments to show both joy and sadness.
All right ... so I didn't put that interpretation on it. OK.
Still, he doesn't covet his neighbour's wife! A-ha! So he doesn't break all of the Ten Commandments! Also, he doesn't take God's name in vain, and he doesn't bear false witness (unless the way I remember things is way off...)
Still, he doesn't covet his neighbour's wife! A-ha! So he doesn't break all of the Ten Commandments!
Also, he doesn't take God's name in vain, and he doesn't bear false witness (unless the way I remember things is way off...)
There's been some discussion of the coin-tossing scene in 1601, while watching Hamlet.
You can't always believe what the director and author say afterwards... they both seem to think that Aziraphale doesn't know Crowley cheated on the coin toss, but violetfaust posted (quoted by joan-daardvark) on tumblr that it's clear from Aziraphale's face that he knows darned well, but he doesn't care. Violetfaust says that the meeting at the Globe was set up when the two hadn't seen each other for a while, so it couldn't have been for the arrangement. It had to have been the chance to hang out together for four hours in what they expected to be a crowd. They do each other's work anyway so it doesn't matter who wins the toss.
But I'm not sure I agree. Although they didn't specifically know that they both had a job in the same place, they seem to have been kept fairly busy so it was a good bet that they had something they could trade off. I think a more likely reason for wanting to have one person do both was to let one of them get out of having to ride a horse, as neither likes that mode of transportation. The face Aziraphale makes when he loses the toss could mean he knows he was cheated but it could just be a grimace at having to ride a horse all that way. Violetfaust does make a good point in the closing comment, that Crowley's agreeing to make Hamlet a hit had more to do with arranging another date, which would be more likely to have a crowd they could hide among for the full four-hour-long play.
You can't always believe what the director and author say afterwards... they both seem to think that Aziraphale doesn't know Crowley cheated on the coin toss, but violetfaust posted (quoted by joan-daardvark) on tumblr that it's clear from Aziraphale's face that he knows darned well, but he doesn't care. Violetfaust says that the meeting at the Globe was set up when the two hadn't seen each other for a while, so it couldn't have been for the arrangement. It had to have been the chance to hang out together for four hours in what they expected to be a crowd. They do each other's work anyway so it doesn't matter who wins the toss.
But I'm not sure I agree. Although they didn't specifically know that they both had a job in the same place, they seem to have been kept fairly busy so it was a good bet that they had something they could trade off. I think a more likely reason for wanting to have one person do both was to let one of them get out of having to ride a horse, as neither likes that mode of transportation. The face Aziraphale makes when he loses the toss could mean he knows he was cheated but it could just be a grimace at having to ride a horse all that way. Violetfaust does make a good point in the closing comment, that Crowley's agreeing to make Hamlet a hit had more to do with arranging another date, which would be more likely to have a crowd they could hide among for the full four-hour-long play.
P.S. joan-daardvark has posted a (so far) three-part discussion of the use of the words "play", "game" and "real" in the Series, Good Omens. (as opposed to the Novel, Script, or 1991 movie-that-wasn't)
It shows how carefully that script was written.
Part 1 meta
Part 2 meta
Part 3 meta
It shows how carefully that script was written.
Part 1 meta
Part 2 meta
Part 3 meta
Crowley's medallion: One of the latest Behind The scenes pictures shows Crowley wearing a medallion, as well as his usual gold chain and neck scarf. It has been yanked out of his shirt to make sure it showed. I don't recall seeing it in the Series as televised, so I am assuming it was a detail they decided not to use. Still, it is interesting as a design choice. It looks to me like a sand dollar with some black fabric around the edges. The sand dollar has a full-fledged Christian myth about it, with holes as wounds, a flower-like shape on the top, and when broken open, five tiny bonelike structures that resemble a sketchy drawing of flying doves (doves because they're white).
The images can be found on apple-duty.
EDIT: Okay, I'm pretty sure I misidentified that. I now think it was probably just a microphone, and they were doing a scene where there is a closeup on his face so the microphone doesn't show.
The images can be found on apple-duty.
EDIT: Okay, I'm pretty sure I misidentified that. I now think it was probably just a microphone, and they were doing a scene where there is a closeup on his face so the microphone doesn't show.
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Something I just realized (and can't remember it being discussed before) is that when they 'do lunch' Azriphale is the only one who appears to be eating (or has just eaten). Crowley is neither seen eating nor has he any place settings in front of him other than a glass of wine.
I have no idea whether this has any significance or not.
I have no idea whether this has any significance or not.
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=Tamar
In the Novel, it's canon that Crowley eats: he sleeps, "especially after a heavy meal". In the Series, you are right, he is not shown eating. He does have popcorn when he is in the theatre watching cartoons, and he takes the popcorn with him when he dashes out after Hastur tells him they're coming for him, but we don't see him eating any popcorn. He might have bought it as part of the routine of going to the movies, but why would he do that?
My head-canon is that he does occasionally eat.
ETA: He also routinely buys ice pops in the park. Presumably he tastes them.
My head-canon is that he does occasionally eat.
ETA: He also routinely buys ice pops in the park. Presumably he tastes them.
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Penfold
I watched Good Omens on DVD, all of the series, I have the DVD. I had already read the book, now I am watching the episodes on BBC2. I loved the story & my Daughter, not a TP fan, watched it with me, amazingly she loves it too.
I am not into dissecting every scene or passing comments on the production, I am not interested in doing that, I just enjoyed it as a film & now as a series. It is well made, the graphics at the begining & end, special effects are amazing & I loved the way it was filmed. The actors, all off them are brilliant.
I am not into dissecting every scene or passing comments on the production, I am not interested in doing that, I just enjoyed it as a film & now as a series. It is well made, the graphics at the begining & end, special effects are amazing & I loved the way it was filmed. The actors, all off them are brilliant.
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=Tamar and Molokov
I've been looking at the fan art for Good Omens online, because when one searches for comments, they are usually mixed in with fanart. Much of it isn't to my taste but some I like, and some of the spinoff cartoons are funny. (Search for Crow-Ley and Aziradove, and also Abziraphale, which are generally safe, but remember that rather a lot of fan art is NSFW and it isn't always marked or behind a cut.)
There is a bit of a disagreement among fan artists, though most are quietly happy to draw their own versions and let others do the same. Disagreement happens because the book gives us hardly any description of the two main characters. Crowley has dark hair and good cheekbones, looks young (or at least younger than Hastur), is lithe, and wears dark glasses. Aziraphale has plump elegantly-manicured hands. That's all we get, aside from a few comments about 1950s style clothing.
There are a few authorial head-canons: Sir Terry suggested that Aziraphale might be played by a burly blond actor, who was muscular and bulky, but not obese. Neil Gaiman suggested a younger, thinner actor who was also blond, and specified "blonder". So they both thought of Aziraphale as blond, but different body types. (Even those head-canons are not set in stone because they both thought the late Peter Sellers would have played either role well and he had dark hair.)
Almost no human character has even that much description, except Pepper, who is a somewhat cliched fiery redhead. We have more description of the Four Horsepersons.
Fan artists have drawn Novel-versions (black hair on Crowley, tartan and sweaters on Aziraphale), Radio-versions (similar but generally thinner), and Series-versions (red hair on Crowley, plump Aziraphale), with costumes according to the cover pictures and radio descriptions, but many have gone on to develop their own concepts. Many choose to draw them as POC, and while that startled me, it is true that there is nothing in the book to preclude that imagery. History might indicate difficulties had they been dark skinned, but there's no solid reason against it. TV being a visual medium, actors had to be cast, and the Series cast is diverse, with Pepper played by a fiery young black girl.
I do find it harder to like pictures of skinny Aziraphales, because that is the one bit of description we have, that he is plump (and elegant). Not massively obese, just comfortably padded. There is even historical support for that. Aziraphale spends far more time involved with humans than Crowley does, especially after Heaven begins monitoring his use of miracles. He seems to spend most of his time in Western Europe and the UK, locations where life was generally much easier if you were not only male but white, and blond hair was a definite plus socially for several centuries. Being obviously well-fed was another indication of wealth and therefore power. It makes sense for Aziraphale to be plump. (Also, angels can shape-change. He could be skinny if he wanted to.)
Looking middle-aged is another useful camouflage trait for Aziraphale. In most centuries, young men would be expected to be involved in military activities, or courting and raising families. By the mid-20th century, wearing glasses and looking older and visibly out of shape would have helped keep him out of active service without being hassled in public, though he would have been expected to participate in home defense activities.
On the other hand, Crowley doesn't need to convince anyone of anything. He can use whatever shape he prefers, because he doesn't associate with any group of people very long, just long enough to do a temptation and maybe have a few drinks. Nobody limits his use of magic, though they apparently check for types of miracles once in a while, so he can create any costume he wants in order to blend in just long enough. Nobody draws him plump, though...
There is a bit of a disagreement among fan artists, though most are quietly happy to draw their own versions and let others do the same. Disagreement happens because the book gives us hardly any description of the two main characters. Crowley has dark hair and good cheekbones, looks young (or at least younger than Hastur), is lithe, and wears dark glasses. Aziraphale has plump elegantly-manicured hands. That's all we get, aside from a few comments about 1950s style clothing.
There are a few authorial head-canons: Sir Terry suggested that Aziraphale might be played by a burly blond actor, who was muscular and bulky, but not obese. Neil Gaiman suggested a younger, thinner actor who was also blond, and specified "blonder". So they both thought of Aziraphale as blond, but different body types. (Even those head-canons are not set in stone because they both thought the late Peter Sellers would have played either role well and he had dark hair.)
Almost no human character has even that much description, except Pepper, who is a somewhat cliched fiery redhead. We have more description of the Four Horsepersons.
Fan artists have drawn Novel-versions (black hair on Crowley, tartan and sweaters on Aziraphale), Radio-versions (similar but generally thinner), and Series-versions (red hair on Crowley, plump Aziraphale), with costumes according to the cover pictures and radio descriptions, but many have gone on to develop their own concepts. Many choose to draw them as POC, and while that startled me, it is true that there is nothing in the book to preclude that imagery. History might indicate difficulties had they been dark skinned, but there's no solid reason against it. TV being a visual medium, actors had to be cast, and the Series cast is diverse, with Pepper played by a fiery young black girl.
I do find it harder to like pictures of skinny Aziraphales, because that is the one bit of description we have, that he is plump (and elegant). Not massively obese, just comfortably padded. There is even historical support for that. Aziraphale spends far more time involved with humans than Crowley does, especially after Heaven begins monitoring his use of miracles. He seems to spend most of his time in Western Europe and the UK, locations where life was generally much easier if you were not only male but white, and blond hair was a definite plus socially for several centuries. Being obviously well-fed was another indication of wealth and therefore power. It makes sense for Aziraphale to be plump. (Also, angels can shape-change. He could be skinny if he wanted to.)
Looking middle-aged is another useful camouflage trait for Aziraphale. In most centuries, young men would be expected to be involved in military activities, or courting and raising families. By the mid-20th century, wearing glasses and looking older and visibly out of shape would have helped keep him out of active service without being hassled in public, though he would have been expected to participate in home defense activities.
On the other hand, Crowley doesn't need to convince anyone of anything. He can use whatever shape he prefers, because he doesn't associate with any group of people very long, just long enough to do a temptation and maybe have a few drinks. Nobody limits his use of magic, though they apparently check for types of miracles once in a while, so he can create any costume he wants in order to blend in just long enough. Nobody draws him plump, though...
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What the... I just saw a gif on apple-duty.tumblr.com of Crowley watching Michael pour the holy water into the tub, reflected in the mirror-window behind which miscellaneous demons are watching and flinching. The reflection of Michael's back is also visible, but...in the reflection, it looks like Michael has no head. The arm moves correctly, there seems to be a hand coming out of the floofy shirt so it's not that hell's mirrors won't reflect archangels... no head.
What am I missing? Are there two windows, one smaller and somehow the reflection in one cuts off at the neckline level? In the same reflection one person seems to be just a little taller than Michael, which would seem to eliminate that possibiity. I don't understand the mechanics of that image.
What am I missing? Are there two windows, one smaller and somehow the reflection in one cuts off at the neckline level? In the same reflection one person seems to be just a little taller than Michael, which would seem to eliminate that possibiity. I don't understand the mechanics of that image.
Aziraphale, in both Novel and Series, enjoys doing sleight-of-hand magic. He literally enjoys pretending that stage magic is real while using fakery. He loves doing something that is essentially telling lies. And it isn't even something Crowley tempted him into. (bearing false witness)
He has found a way to (at least originally) get some applause for having the ability to do miracles without technically breaking the rules. (I assume there are rules against revealing his existence when he hasn't specifically been told to.)
(pride)
While not technically evil, he does seem to be a bit of a trickster.
He has found a way to (at least originally) get some applause for having the ability to do miracles without technically breaking the rules. (I assume there are rules against revealing his existence when he hasn't specifically been told to.)
(pride)
While not technically evil, he does seem to be a bit of a trickster.
Just found it and had a look. I think that because the reflection is in glass and not a mirror, the contrast is better on Michael's clothes (white) than on her hair (dark). I imagine that because a brightly lit scene infront of Michael's position would show the camera crew, she is looking at darkness. Thus her hair has no contrast with everything else reflected in the glass, unlike her clothes. Does that make sense?
As she starts pouring, you can just see the side of her face reflected, but then the angle changes slightly to just reflect hair and it does indeed look like no head.
As she starts pouring, you can just see the side of her face reflected, but then the angle changes slightly to just reflect hair and it does indeed look like no head.
Thanks! That helps some, but in that particular gif I don't see Michael changing position when beginning to pour.
Looking again, and with the help of some behind the scenes images posted online that showed me the tub is on a dais halfway into an alcove, I can sort of see the back of Michael's neck in the reflection. The wooden frame effect is the edging around the alcove the tub is in, and the glass is both showing demons behind it and reflecting the demons in the scene who are in front of Michael. Most of Michael's head is not even reflected because they're taller than the alcove, and most of the head is above that wooden frame. All that is reflected is the back of the neck, and it's very faint compared to the white shirt.
Looking again, and with the help of some behind the scenes images posted online that showed me the tub is on a dais halfway into an alcove, I can sort of see the back of Michael's neck in the reflection. The wooden frame effect is the edging around the alcove the tub is in, and the glass is both showing demons behind it and reflecting the demons in the scene who are in front of Michael. Most of Michael's head is not even reflected because they're taller than the alcove, and most of the head is above that wooden frame. All that is reflected is the back of the neck, and it's very faint compared to the white shirt.
I think I may have spotted an Easter Egg in Episode Six. In the kidnapping scene, Hastur is disguised as an Asian woman, then changes to his normal physical appearance but still wearing the clothing. He is wearing a yellow rain slicker and what appear to be blue jeans. Neil Gaiman's character Coraline, in the stop-motion movie, at times wears a yellow rain slicker and blue jeans, and that is the iconic image of her.
We do have some early warnings about the way it ends.
Gabriel behaves like a demon several times.
When he's being demonic, Crowley usually comes from behind Aziraphale.
At the wall of Eden, Crowley the snake comes up behind Aziraphale's right, and then moves behind him to the left. Later, when he's being a friend, Crowley often approaches from the front or at least the side.
For instance, in the Noah scene, Crowley appears behind Aziraphale's right shoulder. Aziraphale looks to his own right, and Crowley moves to his left. (Fanon theory is that Crowley tapped Aziraphale on the shoulder to make him look that way.)
As late as 1601 at the Globe, Crowley comes from the back of the scene (push-pulling the gate), behind Aziraphale, and then later moves behind him from the right to the left. His position relative to Aziraphale changes during the conversation and the changes can be seen as meaningful when tracked to his statements.
All that has been mentioned online by others.
But what people don't seem to be talking about is when Gabriel does it. Gabriel first appears to Aziraphale's right, in the sushi restaurant.
But in the jogging scene, Gabriel comes from behind, and jogs past Aziraphale. After they talk, he jogs on forward, but when he decides to come back and ask about the flaming sword, he appears from behind Aziraphale [ETA: no, I had that wrong. He appears in front as Aziraphale turns; if Aziraphale had not turned, Gabriel would have been behind him], and it seems pretty obvious that he does it to hassle Aziraphale. He seems all concerned and friendly, but he isn't.
Later when the angels kidnap "Aziraphale" (Crowley-as-Aziraphale), they also come from behind. It's subtle - we see "Crowley" (Aziraphale-as-Crowley), but we don't see "Aziraphale", nor do we see the angels. Since "Aziraphale" would be facing his friend, it seems clear to me that the angels came from behind him. This is emphasized when they drag their victim backwards to the truck. A moment later, the demons are just there when "Crowley" runs past but they attack from behind.
Near the end, in heaven, "Aziraphale" is tied to a chair, and Gabriel appears behind him to his right, crosses behind, and as he comes forward he passes by "Aziraphale"'s left side. Shortly thereafter, the Disposable Demon also appears in [almost] the same place and moves the same way, in an immediate parallel.
Gabriel behaves like a demon several times.
When he's being demonic, Crowley usually comes from behind Aziraphale.
At the wall of Eden, Crowley the snake comes up behind Aziraphale's right, and then moves behind him to the left. Later, when he's being a friend, Crowley often approaches from the front or at least the side.
For instance, in the Noah scene, Crowley appears behind Aziraphale's right shoulder. Aziraphale looks to his own right, and Crowley moves to his left. (Fanon theory is that Crowley tapped Aziraphale on the shoulder to make him look that way.)
As late as 1601 at the Globe, Crowley comes from the back of the scene (push-pulling the gate), behind Aziraphale, and then later moves behind him from the right to the left. His position relative to Aziraphale changes during the conversation and the changes can be seen as meaningful when tracked to his statements.
All that has been mentioned online by others.
But what people don't seem to be talking about is when Gabriel does it. Gabriel first appears to Aziraphale's right, in the sushi restaurant.
But in the jogging scene, Gabriel comes from behind, and jogs past Aziraphale. After they talk, he jogs on forward, but when he decides to come back and ask about the flaming sword, he appears from behind Aziraphale [ETA: no, I had that wrong. He appears in front as Aziraphale turns; if Aziraphale had not turned, Gabriel would have been behind him], and it seems pretty obvious that he does it to hassle Aziraphale. He seems all concerned and friendly, but he isn't.
Later when the angels kidnap "Aziraphale" (Crowley-as-Aziraphale), they also come from behind. It's subtle - we see "Crowley" (Aziraphale-as-Crowley), but we don't see "Aziraphale", nor do we see the angels. Since "Aziraphale" would be facing his friend, it seems clear to me that the angels came from behind him. This is emphasized when they drag their victim backwards to the truck. A moment later, the demons are just there when "Crowley" runs past but they attack from behind.
Near the end, in heaven, "Aziraphale" is tied to a chair, and Gabriel appears behind him to his right, crosses behind, and as he comes forward he passes by "Aziraphale"'s left side. Shortly thereafter, the Disposable Demon also appears in [almost] the same place and moves the same way, in an immediate parallel.
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I just realized.
Ligur was Michael's contact in Hell. But Ligur died. No recorporation from Holy Water death.
So who did they call, to ask for Hellfire to be brought to heaven, and Holy Water to be brought to Hell?
That had to take some organization. Was it Gabriel's contact, that we weren't told about and which he denied having?
OR did Adam bring Ligur back to life Sunday morning, just as he brought back the telephone scammers?
If I recall correctly, Ligur wasn't in the execution scene in Hell, his death was a major accusation against Crowley, and Duke Hastur was still furious. I think Ligur was still dead at that point.
I think maybe Adam didn't bring Ligur back.
And Gabriel was noticeably gleeful in Heaven. I think Gabriel arranged the execution trade-off.
But who was his contact?
Maybe all those Beelzebub/Gabriel fan theories have some support.
Ligur was Michael's contact in Hell. But Ligur died. No recorporation from Holy Water death.
So who did they call, to ask for Hellfire to be brought to heaven, and Holy Water to be brought to Hell?
That had to take some organization. Was it Gabriel's contact, that we weren't told about and which he denied having?
OR did Adam bring Ligur back to life Sunday morning, just as he brought back the telephone scammers?
If I recall correctly, Ligur wasn't in the execution scene in Hell, his death was a major accusation against Crowley, and Duke Hastur was still furious. I think Ligur was still dead at that point.
I think maybe Adam didn't bring Ligur back.
And Gabriel was noticeably gleeful in Heaven. I think Gabriel arranged the execution trade-off.
But who was his contact?
Maybe all those Beelzebub/Gabriel fan theories have some support.
I just realized something about Eric the Disposable Demon (called Eric at one point in the writing, according to Neil Gaiman, and he is routinely called that in fanfic). His hair, which is in two tall peaks assumed to represent horns, just has to be based on the character in Dilbert known as the Pointy-Haired Boss.
Except of course that Eric is the Pointy-Haired Underling. He still has the attribute that you can't get rid of him because he is legion.
Except of course that Eric is the Pointy-Haired Underling. He still has the attribute that you can't get rid of him because he is legion.