Discworld character Face-Off

[Cool Middle Name]

Hello there! This is CMN and in this thread we shall discuss and compare different characters in the areas of skill , intellect, strength and anything! Who are the deepest, most developed characters? Who's the number one copper? Best leader? Most intelligent character?
We start off with the latter!
Who is the most intelligent character in the Discworld series? Is is Granny Weatherwax or the Patrician? Or his aunt?
Does Mr Nutt have a chance here?

It would be great to see how people view and compare Granny and Vetinari. Both are very good 'headologists'. Both know how to press peoples' buttons.
However, I believe that Granny sees things in black and white, even if she says otherwise - the patrician sees only in black.

Vetinari's aunt, introduced in Night Watch, seemed to be behind the plans to get Snapcase on the head of the city. Vetinari has great respect for her and she probably taught him everything he knows.

There are characters like Carrot, Ponder and Mr Nutt who read very much and have therefore gained much general knowledge but are not very good with understanding people or emotions. You may debate about that with Carrot, but he is clearly very simple.

 

[Penfold]

I don't know if mathematical ability counts for intelligence but I would have to opt for You Bastard. Not only is he the Disc's greatest mathematician, but he doesn't have to work particularly hard for a living, unlike the others mentioned, nor does he have to worry too much about where the next meal is coming from. He hasn't made any enemies either and, if I recall correctly, about all he does is laze around in his stall all day thinking.

 

[raptornx01]

Leonard De Quirm?

 

[Anonymous]

You should count the orc out.
He's too perfect and overcomes all obstacles too easily. He always has had the last word, always said the wisest things had the most clever idea, the total overview and was in all ways superior to all other characters. With his only 'flaw' being a bit of unworldyness, as in 'he doesn't quite understand the ways of the simpler races' which never turns out to be in his disadvantage. The world bends around him so he comes out in top.
Therefore, count him out.
And:
Pre- or Post-Going Postal/Nightwatch Vetinari?

 

[MongoGutman]

Nobby Nobbs. He is a petty crook to the marrow of his bones, yet he has managed to get into a position where he's and old and tolerated, if not trusted, member of the constabulary. His small time pilfrages are not only forgiven, they're expected. He's created a very comfortable niche for himself when most of those who share in his basic nature are scrabbling for lose change in the gutter.

 

[Cool Middle Name]

What's the difference, LilMaibe? I didn't notice Vetinari acting particularly strange/more or less intelligent in those two books or after.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

If it's not Vetinari or Granny it has to be Gaspode actually He's a savvy top dog on the street, keeps the Canting Crew as healthy and viable as they can be, help outs the Sammies and generally scams his way out of trouble with only minimal gripes about his poor old paws and a dose of licky end. He lives life on his own terms and is mostly content with it aside from a slightly naive romantic attitude to the way of the wolf so I'd say he's got things pretty much sussed and sewn up.

If we must have a traditional sentient race then I'd much prefer Vetinari over Granny or Nutt as he's far more realistic than either of them and knows exactly how to exploit situations purposefully so they turn out the way he wants them to. And no, he doesn't see things in black or white, just shades of grey from deepest charcoal to the mistiest of pales as per his most prized possession at one time while he was still a post-grad Assassin :ugeek:

As for Aunties, Vampire statespersons and Crossword Ladies - well they're specialists not all-rounders and can only exceed in their areas of expertise, which he studies and learns from then applies in ways they're unlikely to have thought of... :dance:

 

[Anonymous]

What's the difference, LilMaibe? I didn't notice Vetinari acting particularly strange/more or less intelligent in those two books or after.

He's acting more in favour of the 'story'. Okay, possible Narrativium and 'Stories' gained much more influence over people in the fixed timeline since Thief of Time.
But, UA, for example, this whole 'Forbidding foot-the-ball because of its brutality' The Vetinari of Jingo would have known it won't of much use, as there'd still be matches in much narrower alleys, the hate between the fans would still be there etc. In short, forbidding the game on the street was pointless.
That move was 'good for the story' though, but little else.
Then in general his way of being informed. It switched from knowing what he needed to know to pull the right strings to knowing either nothing to force suspense about a character or know everything and just keep quiet because....well, because of the story (snuff struck me as if he knows exactly what s going on and what all will happen)

 

[Ziriath]

Yeah, in MM and UA it seems to me he knows everyone in the city, including their family tree some generations back. He was talking like Leto II Atreides, the God Emperor of Dune. It's quite strange and not much believable in case of a guy around 50 years old.
When I'm thinking about this, an inconsistence came to my mind. Vetinari was talking with Nobby Nobbs in the end of Guards! Guards! but in Men at arms he did not recognize him and asked him, if he's a dwarf and a city's employee (or something like this).
Maybe forgetting of Nobby's face after some time is kinda self-defense mechanism of the mind?

 

[raptornx01]

and he had just been shot.

 

[Ziriath]

That would explain it. The drink Ridcully gave him, maybe worked too.

And I prefer Vetinari. He's sometimes menacing, arrogant, quite depressed the most of the time, but he has a very high moral standard. Relatively. He doesnt know anything about mechanics or alchemy, but I think he pretends it- people will tell him more than they wanted to say in their effort of explaining stuff. Sometimes he seems to me like a sort of male witch, but not so bad-tempered like Granny Weatherwax.

 

[Cool Middle Name]

Yeah, in MM and UA it seems to me he knows everyone in the city, including their family tree some generations back. He was talking like Leto II Atreides, the God Emperor of Dune. It's quite strange and not much believable in case of a guy around 50 years old.
When I'm thinking about this, an inconsistence came to my mind. Vetinari was talking with Nobby Nobbs in the end of Guards! Guards! but in Men at arms he did not recognize him and asked him, if he's a dwarf and a city's employee (or something like this).
Maybe forgetting of Nobby's face after some time is kinda self-defense mechanism of the mind?

Oh, everyone remembers Corporal Nobbs. He must have been in a pretty bad situation to forget his face.

I don't think he had the ability to remember Nobby's face, and I'm not even sure he saw it really. He noticed his height and assumed that his ethnic employment programme employed him.

 

[hazel8252]

Vetinari is a character where I often wonder how deeply he has to think about things; does he plan years ahead or is he just naturally able to deduce what will happen?
Granny is clever in a different sense, I don't often compare the two as they're from different areas, different worlds almost. I compare Granny and Nanny a lot, using magic in different ways. Nanny is sometimes very clever in a way people don't see and that makes her even sharper.

 

[TimBou]

Surely Ponder Stibbons deserves a mention if we are talking intelligence? He certainly doesn't have political nous like Vetinari or the my-way-or-the-highway certainty of Granny Weatherwax, but he would beat them both hands down in his understanding of the quantum theory of magic, parallel universes etc. etc. And he's just about the only person in UU who actually does any work nowadays.

I'm glad You Bastard and Gaspode got a mention already!

I agree! Down with Nutt! Boo!

Just reading "Lords and Ladies" now and the contrast between the kinds of intelligence applied by Granny and Nanny is very clear there. Go Nanny!

 

[Mattvwj]

Wow, so little love for Nutt! I feel like I'm the only person who actually liked this character? Yes, he was unrealistic in his intelligence, but thats somewhat explained, in that whilst he was living with Margalotta (sp?) he literally had nothing else to do but gain knowledge and 'worth', and because he was basically 'Tabula Rasa' (to be as pretentious and uppity as i can, because....why not?) he filled himself with knowledge and skills as much as he could. I think it was fairly brave of Sir Terry to introduce a new race so late in the series, and to do so in this way, much in the same way as he did with the goblins in Snuff. I don't think that Nutt was shown to be infallible, just that everything panned out for him in this particular story, especially as so much stuff relied on luck, considering how different things could have gone, simply if he had not met Trev or Glenda, but i suppose this could be said about any character. This is all my opinion of course, and considering its an unpopular one it seems, i've probably interpreted this excessively wrong!

However, away from all that, i would have to agree on Vetinari being the most intelligent character, mostly through his ridiculous cunning and use of countless Xantos Gambits (Oh hi again pretension/ TV tropes), and the fact he knows about nearly everything that happens in his city, and his very good use of democratic tyranny.
Can't comment on Granny though as the only Witches book i've read is wintersmith, so haven't got enough background to go from!

 

[Tonyblack]

You're not alone Matt - I liked Nutt too.

 

[Teppic]

Same here. But I don't get the impression he's innately intelligent; he's learned, bookish, a consumer of knowledge. He's a long way off the inventive intelligence of Stibbons or Leonard of Quirm or the hackers in Going Postsal, doesn't have political intelligence like Vetinari, has virtually no street-smarts like Vimes, nor does he have the trickiness of Nobby Nobbs (which is an intelligence of sorts), or the single-bloody-mindedness of Granny. And he has virtually no emotional intelligence.

In short, he consmes knowledges becuase he thinks it makes him worthy, but then spends his life in the cellars of the University because he seems remarkably incapable of using his intelligence to better his life or - more to the point - doesn't have the confidence of self-worth to believe he should use it in this way.

Far from being infallible I think he's a tragic character. Intelligent, yes, but it's all too passive for his own good until later in the book.

 

[Anonymous]

The book aside:
The thing with him is actually a pretty common problem many writers seem to have, whether they write original works or fanfiction (with original characters):
The perception of genius/intelligence.
Society does celebrate those as geniuses that 'merely' have a good memory. Chess, rubik's cube, the number Pi it's all memory when you look at it, but we are impressed with what people do there, even though most of these things have no real use. In the time a 'genius' has memorized a grocery list by making up a little story or putting these things in the mindpalace one could as well write the bloody thing down several times.
Now, in fiction things, as usually are a bit weirder:
Commonly, unfortunately commonly, a 'genius' character will be portrayed as such:

• Uses 'Big' Word
  Has outstanding mathematical and language skills
  Has an array of chemistry/physics/medical skills

Often this is paired with the other characters being impressed out of proportion, no matter what the 'genius' has done or how dull it might be once you actually think about it.

It's nothing uncommon in fiction, sadly. But it is very weird to see it played straight in one of Sir Terry's works.

To give it credited: The orc (sorry, I still can't type his name out without going into a childish fit of giggles) has a few moments where he is rather tragic, but these quickly get drowned out by another character being ridiculously impressed by a bunch of big but empty words or a pretty mundane doing.

 

[Mattvwj]

Lilmaibe, i really like what you wrote, thinking over a lot of books i've Read, actually, as you say, sadly, this occurs a lot. I can see what you mean about Nutt to some extent, but i don't think he's ever seen as a genius as such, certainly the word is never explicitly used i think (though my recollection may be wrong about this), more that he's just extremely well read. The others are only impressed, and don't forget this is after being suspicious for quite a while, because their levels of his kind of knowledge are noticeably lacking.
Also, he is shown to be lacking in many, many skills, as teppic mentioned above which i think helps to show that his 'genius' is more a show of rote learning and large memory, and the application of certain parts of this is in error (like when he gets 'killed' by the other faction, just by comparing their actions to rats, or when he uses certain words, like mature, to Glenda). Also, i think, the fact that he picks up skills, like shoeing the horse, so fast and well is maybe implied because his race is bred to be single minded killing machines, and when this single minded this is focused elsewhere, it leads to results like this, which Sir Terry has also played with with vampires like Otto.

Again, this is all my opinion (i may as well have this phrase on my clipboard permanently!) so take from it what you will! haha

 

[Anonymous]

As I said, I had bits and parts where I started to like him. These were the parts where it seemed as if he started to have flaws, to see that the things he reads in books aren't applyable on the real world. But as with the other characters, these moment, to me, got crushed near instantly. The whole getting killed in retrospect felt more as if to show the reader that the character is nigh immortal/possesses healing skills that can bring him back from dead and he didn't seem to have learned anything from it. Does he wonder what it was that resulted in the blow to the neck? No. Instead he continues using big words and dropping names of philosophers a situation reminds him of. Trevor doesn't even seem really phased about the whole thing. At least not for long enough to let it have any impact.
In general the whole thing feels as if most plotthreads were dropped half-way through.