Discworld marathon blog...

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Tonyblack

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One thing that Terry did in Sourcery was give himself a way to reinvent the wizards in a future book. I don't think he was really happy with the way he'd made them and the events of Sourcery gave him the chance to clear the way for Moving Pictures and the introduction of Ridcully, Ponder and the Faculty as we know them. Much less destructive and power crazy and much more doddery and silly. :laugh:

Sourcery isn't one of my favourite books, but there are some interesting ideas in there. :)
 

Quatermass

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Tonyblack said:
One thing that Terry did in Sourcery was give himself a way to reinvent the wizards in a future book. I don't think he was really happy with the way he'd made them and the events of Sourcery gave him the chance to clear the way for Moving Pictures and the introduction of Ridcully, Ponder and the Faculty as we know them. Much less destructive and power crazy and much more doddery and silly. :laugh:

Sourcery isn't one of my favourite books, but there are some interesting ideas in there. :)
That's actually a good point that I haven't thought about, consciously, before. It's a good way of having a tabula rasa or blank slate to do whatever you want. Very good point, Tony, although the wizards do reappear briefly, more or less as they were (or in a state of transition, at least) at the start of Eric.

Speaking of Ridcully, how many other people here hear his voice as Brian Blessed? No indoor voice, big girth with the rude health of a bear... :)
 

Quatermass

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Tonyblack said:
I've always thought of him as being more like Graham Crowden. You should appreciate this clip Q. ;)

He also voiced Ridcully in the animation of Soul Music.
I've seen clips from The Horns of Nimon before. He just acts weirdly in that scene, and from what I heard, that story was closer to a pantomime than real Doctor Who.

I admit, Crowden does a good enough Ridcully, and so does Joss Ackland from Hogfather. I haven't seen Timothy West's version yet, as Going Postal isn't out in Australia on DVD yet. But I still feel Brian Blessed IS Ridcully.
 

raisindot

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Quatermass said:
Speaking of Ridcully, how many other people here hear his voice as Brian Blessed? No indoor voice, big girth with the rude health of a bear... :)
Stephen Briggs has the best vocalization of Ridcully. Brass, arrogant, blowsy, impatient. Nigel Planer's Ridcully sounds old and whiny, at least in Lords and Ladies.

The worst portrayal was whoever played him in the film version of Hogfather. The actor played him like Dumbledore on valium.
 

Quatermass

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raisindot said:
Quatermass said:
Speaking of Ridcully, how many other people here hear his voice as Brian Blessed? No indoor voice, big girth with the rude health of a bear... :)
Stephen Briggs has the best vocalization of Ridcully. Brass, arrogant, blowsy, impatient. Nigel Planer's Ridcully sounds old and whiny, at least in Lords and Ladies.

The worst portrayal was whoever played him in the film version of Hogfather. The actor played him like Dumbledore on valium.
Joss Ackland played him well enough, he just wasn't shouty enough.
 

Quatermass

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REVIEW: Wyrd Sisters


In re-reading the Discworld books, I find myself re-evaluating my own prejudices towards the series. I've often undervalued the Witches series, partly because I was more interested in the antics of Rincewind and the City Watch and Death and his family. The characters were interesting enough, but the stories didn't quite grab me. Nonetheless, Wyrd Sisters, at least, is due for some change in opinion...

The Felmets have usurped and murdered the rightful king of Lancre, and the heir has fallen into the hands of a newly established coven of witches in Lancre: the stern, no-nonsense Granny Weatherwax, the bawdy Nanny Ogg, and the rather wet Magrat Garlick. After sending the heir to safety with a troupe of actors, the witches must deal with the machinations of the paranoid Lord Felmet, and his vicious wife. Between plays, a Fool who is far from a fool, ghosts of kings past, and an angry land, the three witches have their work cut out for them, for a war of words and ideas is about to spring up between them and the Felmets, and even if the populace of Lancre don't turn against the witches, they might just turn against each other...

I think that this book probably marks the real turning point where the Discworld series does start to become more serious. While Mort and Equal Rites had serious themes, it was still done more facetiously, and while there is a strong amount of facetiousness in Wyrd Sisters, it is also a much more serious book throughout.

Like many a Witches book, it takes off strongly after a literary genre or part of mythology, examining what makes a story. In Witches Abroad, fairytales were examined. Lords and Ladies, when it wasn't ripping off A Midsummer Night's Dream, was examining the mythology behind fairies and elves. Carpe Jugulum deconstructed vampire stories, while in some respects, the Tiffany Aching stories deconstructed both the Witches series itself, as well as the Harry Potter books (and yes, I may be reading too much into that, but deal with it).

The characters of the witches are probably the strongest point in the novel. Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg leap off the page, fully formed, although I feel that Magrat, an otherwise marvellous character, could have done with a lot more development. The Felmets are wonderful versions of the Macbeth characters, even if a little lacking, and the Fool, in his debut, is an intriguing character who you often feel sorry for. However, the characters of Tomjon and Hwel are less interesting than they should be, which is a real pity, and I get the feeling that Terry Pratchett inserted Greebo mostly as a one-off joke that later developed into the monster moggy we know and, uh, 'love' today.

The plot, at the surface, seems like a twisted version of Macbeth, but once you get past that layer (and commenting on Shakespeare in general), you start to find what this really is about, a common thread throughout the Witches books, about stories, words, and ideas. This has a good start here, unlike the extended philosophy on the nature of magic (and gender politics) that is Equal Rites. It's cringe-inducing but still funny to watch Granny Weatherwax disrupting a play, and thinking that it has a power that she herself can't do anything against, or at least that's what she thinks. And the Felmets are redeemed from being melodramatic villains by the fact that they use psychological warfare and propaganda against the witches, though having more of an example of the people losing their respect of the witches would have made good reading (as it did in I Shall Wear Midnight).

Unfortunately, the climax, while one can understand what needs to be done, is a little confusing, and I feel that more could have been made of the anger of the land of Lancre against Felmet's rule. The sequences with Hwel and Tomjon are not as good as they can be. While Hwel is an interesting expy of Shakespeare and writers in general, Tomjon seems too much of some kind of Marty Stu or some sort of similar character. And the sequence where the witches break up is, well, not as well written as it could have been, and should have stuck a little better.

Still, Wyrd Sisters surprised me on re-reading, and hopefully, my re-evaluation of the Witches series will turn up more surprising opinions. After all, an idea isn't half baked as long as it is coven-baked...



Special New Utterance Rating Trial: Ooh.

First words: The wind howled.

Last words: They went, though, just the same.
 

Tonyblack

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Interesting review, Q. I agree that the ending is somewhat confusing, but I think it's deliberately so. It's like a literary game of Find The Lady - or in this case, Find The Baby. The question is: is Verence the true heir - and does it really matter. The witches don't think so. A king isn't has to love his land. this is something that Felmet was incapable of. It's like Tiffany in those books - a witch tells the land what it is.

The witches most important job is as a sort of unofficial police force and they guard the boundaries of the land. This is also something that Terry really explores in this book. :laugh:
 

Quatermass

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Tonyblack said:
Interesting review, Q. I agree that the ending is somewhat confusing, but I think it's deliberately so. It's like a literary game of Find The Lady - or in this case, Find The Baby. The question is: is Verence the true heir - and does it really matter. The witches don't think so. A king isn't has to love his land. this is something that Felmet was incapable of. It's like Tiffany in those books - a witch tells the land what it is.

The witches most important job is as a sort of unofficial police force and they guard the boundaries of the land. This is also something that Terry really explores in this book. :laugh:
Actually, the confusing part wasn't exactly the whole thing with the Fool (aka Verence II) and Tomjon (which was at least foreshadowed enough times early on), but more of the point where the witches decide to change the story of the play and how. I sort of lost that bit, though to be fair, my reading technique (speed-reading) may preclude that.

...Yeah, I kinda stuffed up. I sort of missed the actual bit where they decide to, and I quote, 'put words in their [the actor's] mouths'. o_O

I sort of thought that whole guff about policing their turf was a given. Virtually all of the heroes do that one way or another. Rincewind is pretty much a roving troubleshooter (whether he likes it or not), Vimes and the Watch do Ankh-Morpork, the Witches do Lancre, Tiffany Aching does the Chalk, and Death, well, he and Susan look after Life.

Is it me, or does the Felmets manipulating the Lancre-folk against the Witches feel very strongly like what the Cunning Man (and the paranoia he enhances) does in I Shall Wear Midnight?
 

Tonyblack

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The Felmets have no real power, so they attempt to rule by fear. This makes them even more hated. It's interesting to me that Felmet never actually becomes the king, even though he has the right (assuming that the true heir is dead) and he has the might of his mercenaries to seize the throne. Had he actually had the coronation, it might have made his position stronger.

I think the Cunning Man works differently. He doesn't so much control people by fear of himself (like Felmet does) but rather by the fears that people have inside them and the prejudices that those fears create.
 

Quatermass

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Tonyblack said:
The Felmets have no real power, so they attempt to rule by fear. This makes them even more hated. It's interesting to me that Felmet never actually becomes the king, even though he has the right (assuming that the true heir is dead) and he has the might of his mercenaries to seize the throne. Had he actually had the coronation, it might have made his position stronger.

I think the Cunning Man works differently. He doesn't so much control people by fear of himself (like Felmet does) but rather by the fears that people have inside them and the prejudices that those fears create.
I meant his specific tactics against the witches. Felmet does manage to use the fear and hate of witches people have against them, albeit on the suggestion of the Fool, who is admittedly between Scylla and Charybdis. But yes, Felmet hangs onto his rule generally through intimidation and fear against the populace. Ironic, for such a paranoid man. I also notice that he sort of cycles between being paranoid as hell and being very sharp, while Lady Felmet is more consistently evil (and very proud of it, even after Granny Weatherwax tries to show her what she is really like, which is why blunt force trauma is needed...).

While I begin Pyramids, I have to say, I've noticed that there is a theme of Pratchett antagonists who basically exist to maintain the status quo, while the protagonists mess it up. You have Dios, you have Vorbis, you have Mr Bent (who isn't exactly an antagonist in the end, but he does impede Moist), the Auditors (of course, although they wish to maintain the status quo of physics by destroying life), Lily Weatherwax, the Grandfathers from Nation, and so on. Of course, the reverse happens in many other books, and Lord Vetinari could be seen as the more...protagonistic version of those antagonists I just mentioned.
 

Tonyblack

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Ah, I see what you mean. I'd forgotten about the Fool's idea of spreading rumours and lies about the witches. Yes, I can see what you mean. :)

As to antagonists maintaining the status quo - there's Vetinari's speech to Vimes about people basically wanting tomorrow to be pretty much the same as today and yesterday (Guards! Guards!? o_O ). Terry is a great student of the human condition and he's pretty much right that people will plod along doing the same thing day after day, no matter how bad it is. Sometimes you need to throw a proverbial spanner into the works that forces change.

Look at recent events in our world where people, who have been living for decades under harsh regimes, have finally decided that enough is enough. You need people to upset the apple cart now and again. :)
 

Quatermass

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Yeah, that sounds about right. Of course, the obverse is people who try to upset the status quo.

It's also worth pointing out that most of the heroes in the series are heroes despite their deep flaws. Rincewind is a coward, but he still has a spark of decency that makes him a better man than the character he was based on, Flashman. Both Vimes and Granny Weatherwax struggle against their own inner demons and the temptations of power. Moist von Lipwig is torn between his criminal instincts (or rather, his desire for thrills and excitement) and his own, albeit flawed, morality. Death has to balance duty and his compassion for humanity, despite the fact that he finds it hard to understand humanity.

Vetinari, while not actually a hero, is not a villain either, and does good despite the fact that he is a dictator, albeit a benevolent one who knows how to manipulate people to benefit the city. In fact, it seems to be that he is absolutely devoted to his duty as the ruler of Ankh-Morpork, rather than devoted to power. "It's all about the city", he tells Moist. I think he believes in doing good in some form or another, despite what he tells Vimes at the end of Guards! Guards! After all, Vimes does ask Vetinari why he bothers getting up in the morning if he has such an attitude to life and humanity.
 

Quatermass

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BTW, I am over a third of the way through my second reading of Pyramids, and I am not enjoying it any more than I did the first time around. Sorry, Pooh, I don't understand why you enjoy it so much. It's got more filler than the Doctor Who story The War Games.
 

Quatermass

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Willem said:
Quatermass said:
It's got more filler than the Doctor Who story The War Games.
Never heard of it! When is your Doctor Who book review marathon blog starting? :)
I'm doing a Doctor Who DVD review marathon on another BBS. I've just finished Frontier in Space, which was from 1973. :p

The difference between Pyramids and Doctor Who: The War Games, though, is that despite the filler, The War Games actually sustains my interest, or at least sustains it more.

The War Games was the last black and white story, as well as the last to feature Patrick Troughton. Ten episodes long. Ten. There's actually a very excellent trailer done for the DVD release if you want to look at it Willem. And here it is. Just be warned if you are susceptible to flashing lights, there are a few at the start.
 

Quatermass

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REVIEW: Pyramids


Once, I read a book on the Discworld series that claimed that Pyramids improved on multiple read-throughs. Considering, then, that this is my second read-through of Pyramids, I thought that knowing how it ends would help enhance the rather dismal performance of the book. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case...

Prince Pteppicymon (aka Teppic) of Djelibeybi has spent most of his life in the Assassin's Guild of Ankh-Morpork, a comprehensive education that nonetheless fails spectacularly at preparing him for becoming the King of Djelibeybi. For the small country of Djelibeybi has been pretty much bankrupted by building so many pyramids as monuments and tombs for their deceased kings, the high priest Dios is so set in his ways that he speaks for the king, even when the kings have other views, and Djelibeybi are between two countries hostile to each other and raring for war. Teppic can only rely on a handmaiden called Ptraci, and a camel (and the greatest living mathematician on the Disc) called You B*****d, as the obsession with pyramid building has a disastrous effect on Djelibeybi, and brings two countries to the brink of war, and another to the edge of destruction...

I'll be blunt here before tearing Pyramids to shreds: there are a hell of a lot of good concepts here, and the sequences of Teppic learning at the Assassin's Guild were not only good, I feel that they would have been more worthy of expansion into a novel than what Pyramids became.

The problem, however, with Pyramids is that it's not sure what it wants to be, whether it be an epic, a satire (of topics ranging from philosophy to tradition), or a pastiche of Egyptian culture. It's a schizophrenic mess that manages to take a lot of good, but unformed, ideas and slap them together in a way that makes them as dull and monotonous as the Egyptian sands themselves.

One problem is the characters. Teppic is at his best when he is training to become an assassin. The reversal of the standard 'fish out of water' story could have worked, however, had he not been up against Dios. Dios is not so much a villain as a process, and an extremely dull one at that. I suppose, being all but an anthropomorphic personification of tradition, dullness can be expected, but not so much that he is a practically immovable object. Even the Auditors, personifications of dullness though they may be, are far more interesting. They have much more interesting personalities than Dios, and the twist at the end only makes Dios even duller. A good chunk of the second book of Pyramids could have been easily excised, and the book would have been better (or at least no worse) for it. Ptraci is basically a standard feisty female character.

The story itself, while not as incomprehensible as one may think, is still extraordinarily dull. I feel that Pyramids is a first-draft version of the much superior Small Gods. Pyramids tries to be an epic, whereas The Colour of Magic, The Light Fantastic and Sourcery, at least, didn't pretend that it was anything but a nice little romp across the Discworld. Pyramids tries extremely hard, but fails spectacularly. This is one of the only Pratchett stories to actually bore me, at least after Teppic goes back to Djelibeybi.

The back cover of my copy of Pyramids claims that Pyramids is 'the most outrageously funny [Discworld book] to date'. I reckon someone should sic former Patrician Olaf Quimby onto the people who put that on the back cover, or perhaps Mr Slant. This is, unfortunately, the nadir of the Discworld series. It can only get better.


Special New Utterance Rating Trial: Ugh.

First words: Nothing but stars, scattered across the blackness as though the Creator had smashed the windscreen of his car and hadn't bothered to stop to sweep up the pieces.

Last words: (Not recorded due to spoilers)
 

Tonyblack

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I've always liked the bit in the Assassins Guild as well. I had really good hopes for the book when I read that. But I don't hate it or even think it's all that dull. In a way the 'dullness' that's in there reflects Dios's never ending aim to keep everything happening pretty much the same as it was yesterday and a hundred years ago. He's a bit like Albert in that he's got stuck in a groove of every day being pretty much the same.

The bits in Ephebe with the philosophers is quite interesting, but, as you say, reminiscent of the philosophers in Small Gods.

I don't hate the book or even dislike it, I just don't see why some people rate it so highly.

Another interesting review, Q. :laugh:
 

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