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SPOILERS Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

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C

cabbagehead

Constable
#221
Nov 13, 2011
97
1,650
#221
To raisindot:

Thanks for the welcome. I agree Willikins isn't a member of the Watch. He was justified in killing Stratford as a civilian. (I see how my comparison with Ahmed was confusing.) An escaped alleged murderer is a present danger. A civilian who isn't going to be able to call law enforcement in time is not required to attempt capture, s/he is to do whatever is in hir power to be safe, which may include killing first and asking questions later. Open countryside is not a place where one can rely on the law to be safe. (In our world we see differences in attitudes towards owning and using guns for self defense between rural, suburban and urban settings in part because of differences in the time it takes for law enforcement to be able to arrive on the scene.)

If it hadn't been Willikins but some average civilian with a sword, who happened to know that Stratford was an alleged murderer, what should s/he have done?
 
R

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
#222
Oct 1, 2009
5,320
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#222
cabbagehead said:
To raisindot:

If it hadn't been Willikins but some average civilian with a sword, who happened to know that Stratford was an alleged murderer, what should s/he have done?
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I think the key word here is "alleged." Assuming that AM does abide by the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" (even if the outcome is probably already settled way ahead of time, even if Vetinari's punishments aren't already indicative of proper justice being served), then for anyone--a civilian or otherwise--to stalk an alleged criminal with the sole purpose of killing them is nothing more than vigilantism. The point is (at least here in the U.S.) that the average civilian is allowed to defend himself with lethal force against an attack, but is not supposed to PROVOKE such an attack or get himself into a situation where he is stalking an alleged criminal with the sole purpose to instigating an attack. This is clearly what Willikens was doing.

It's the equivalent of rednecks in the American south who, upon hearing a rumor that a black man who whistled at a white girl, found the man and lynched him.
 
C

cabbagehead

Constable
#223
Nov 13, 2011
97
1,650
#223
To raisindot:

I think the key word here is "alleged." Assuming that AM does abide by the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" (even if the outcome is probably already settled way ahead of time, even if Vetinari's punishments aren't already indicative of proper justice being served), then for anyone--a civilian or otherwise--to stalk an alleged criminal with the sole purpose of killing them is nothing more than vigilantism.
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The other key phrase is 'escaped from custody'. Not the same rules any longer, as far as I know.

There are quite a few differences between Pepe and Willikins. Pepe was in a city with a substantial law enforcement force. If he had any information about crimes Andy needed to be punished for or about people who needed non-immediate protection from Andy he could have taken his information to the Watch and have them arrest Andy or protect the would-be victims.

Willikins was alone in the countryside, some distance from the watchmen Stratford had attacked and hours away from a proper prison cell that could contain Stratford with any reliability. Had Willikins turned back to alert the watchmen Stratford could have been well on his way to Ankh Morpork or the Shires (or anywhere else). Not clear how long it would have taken to get to the nearest Clacks tower in order to warn the members of the Vimes family. Even if Willikins had captured Stratford (which as a civilian he had no obligation to do), keeping him from escaping while bringing him to prison - which means several hours of travel at the very least - may not have worked, considering Stratford's talent with locks.
 
R

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
#224
Oct 1, 2009
5,320
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#224
cabbagehead said:
Willikins was alone in the countryside, some distance from the watchmen Stratford had attacked and hours away from a proper prison cell that could contain Stratford with any reliability. Had Willikins turned back to alert the watchmen Stratford could have been well on his way to Ankh Morpork or the Shires (or anywhere else). Not clear how long it would have taken to get to the nearest Clacks tower in order to warn the members of the Vimes family. Even if Willikins had captured Stratford (which as a civilian he had no obligation to do), keeping him from escaping while bringing him to prison - which means several hours of travel at the very least - may not have worked, considering Stratford's talent with locks.
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The circumstance under which this occurs isn't really the point. Willikins does not have the legal authority to stalk or kill Stratford. Only the Watch does. Willikins is taking the law into his own hands. It's quite clear he had no intention of recapturing Stratford and was looking for the opportunity to murder him. The result doesn't justify the means. Even Vimes, who, in AM, is known to turn a blind eye when street justice is delivered (particularly when the Agony Aunts are involved), understands that Willikins committed murder. That's why he consciously decided not to ask Willikens where he was when Stratford was killed. Because he knows if he does, he will be legally required to arrest him.
 
C

cabbagehead

Constable
#225
Nov 13, 2011
97
1,650
#225
I don't expect Willikins to recapture Stratford, that's not his job. As a civilian that's not a standard he needs to attempt to meet. Willikins had every right in the world to be where he was, as a free person. He did not attack Stratford while the latter was in custody, and as far as I can tell did nothing to create the situation in which Stratford escaped. Had Stratford not escaped he would have arrived to his trial in Ankh Morpork. Willikins had reason to expect the escaped Stratford to be a threat and dealt with the threat in a way that suited the circumstances (location, distance from support, distance from a place where Stratford can be contained reliably). In a place where the law can't act effectively vigilantism is the correct response.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
#226
#226
As an outsider (for snuff) I still have to ask this: What happened to -knock'em out and tie'em up neatly-?
 
R

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
#227
Oct 1, 2009
5,320
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#227
cabbagehead said:
In a place where the law can't act effectively vigilantism is the correct response.
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I don't wish to cause offense, but this viewpoint would fit quite well in many parts of the U.S. where heavily armed militias, libertarians, separatists, and other vigilante nuts have taken their interpretation of the law into their own hands for hundreds of years, killing thousands of innocent people along the way. Any place where "vigilantism is the correct response" is not one I'd personally like to live in. But that's just my .02. Your mileage, of course, may vary.
 
C

cabbagehead

Constable
#228
Nov 13, 2011
97
1,650
#228
Any place where "vigilantism is the correct response" is not one I'd personally like to live in.
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Neither would I. My impression is that one things that makes a society civilized is that both killing and being killed became specializations, a large part of society can live its life with little chance of doing either. But places where the law can't reach effectively aren't civilized. I don't want to live in an uncivilized place, I hope nothing happens that forces me to live in uncivilized conditions, but I acknowledge that uncivilized places exist and I can't expect people who are outside of civilization to pretend they aren't.
 
C

cabbagehead

Constable
#229
Nov 13, 2011
97
1,650
#229
As an outsider (for snuff) I still have to ask this: What happened to -knock'em out and tie'em up neatly-?
Click to expand...
Stratford has Houdini talents. He was shackled, but the wagon carrying him crashed into the express mail coach traveling in the opposite direction. Stratford used the confusion to pick the lock of his shackles, kill one of the guards and escape. (Which of course would have added another murder to his charge sheet.)

Unless anyone manages to keep him unconscious for the rest of the way I don't think tying him up neatly could have done the trick.
 
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