SPOILERS Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**
- Thread starter windscion
- Start date
ray: 
And something is amiss. That's the point. Nutt has a huge character flaw which leads him to believe he's not worthy of others' attentions and affections unless he is perfect at everything he does. I'm sure we've all known people like that (I think I'm a bit like that myself in all honesty) and Nutt is an exagerated version of this. He makes damn well sure he is good at everything to the detriment of his own happiness and wellbeing. Nutt is like a school-kid absolutely determined to impress everyone because he fear the consequences (mostly imagined) if he doesn't. At the same time he's able to diagnose and phychoanalyse other people but is actually one of Pratchett's most emotionally immature characters and is very melancholic in this sense. The way he talks to Glenda about her bosum (I forget the exact quote), his failure to understand football for a lot of the book beyond his bookish analysis of the game, the way he talks to everyone like a smart child would without changing his tone or style to suit the context or the person he's speaking to. Him being outstanding at everything is a symptom of his huge character flaw, not of a schoolboy error in Pratchett's formation of characters in my opinion.
And actually, it's interesting you should raise this point because whilst I think Nutt is a very well-crafted character, Vimes in Snuff bothers me for similar reasons Nutt bothers you in UA. He doesn't really lose any battles, and almost becomes a supercop. Vimes' near infallibility in the latest book is a symptom of the plot Pratchett chose to write so comes across as less-convincing, whilst Nutt's (seeming) infallibility is at the very heart of his character in UA. Just my 2p worth.
And actually, it's interesting you should raise this point because whilst I think Nutt is a very well-crafted character, Vimes in Snuff bothers me for similar reasons Nutt bothers you in UA. He doesn't really lose any battles, and almost becomes a supercop. Vimes' near infallibility in the latest book is a symptom of the plot Pratchett chose to write so comes across as less-convincing, whilst Nutt's (seeming) infallibility is at the very heart of his character in UA. Just my 2p worth.
A
I would agree if it weren't for a tiny detail. An important detail, though:
The number of skills he has and at which he is perfect, in the flashbacks already.
That is beyond trying to do well because one thinks one has to.
There is a fine, very fine line which was crossed.
And try to think beyond the story:
He now knows he 'has worth' (which is actually argueable, depending on one's personal understanding of worth). Now what?
He is perfect at everything.
There is no point he could evolve to and no chance for actual conflict.
The only thing he can do is, be perfect and make other characters pointless and take their place.
Is creating such a character really a good thing?
(And as you think I'm whining around anyway I can just as well go and say: Geese, you folks surely have a talent for ruining an entire series for someone who held it dear once)
The number of skills he has and at which he is perfect, in the flashbacks already.
That is beyond trying to do well because one thinks one has to.
There is a fine, very fine line which was crossed.
And try to think beyond the story:
He now knows he 'has worth' (which is actually argueable, depending on one's personal understanding of worth). Now what?
He is perfect at everything.
There is no point he could evolve to and no chance for actual conflict.
The only thing he can do is, be perfect and make other characters pointless and take their place.
Is creating such a character really a good thing?
(And as you think I'm whining around anyway I can just as well go and say: Geese, you folks surely have a talent for ruining an entire series for someone who held it dear once)
SPOILERS AVAST
Heading into real tangent territory here, but Nutt is really simply a non-human version of the "journey to virtue" narrative Pterry's had as a theme since at least Mort. Small Gods, The Truth, Guards Guards and Going Postal all start with powerless and flawed men who start at a baseline of either ignorance, mediocrity, or criminality but then work their work through a series of physical and or intellectual or moral challenges to reach their full potential as a valued and respected member of their particular society. (This same thing happens with Tiffany Aching in Wee Free Men, but one never really gets the sense that she was powerless.)
I'm not a big fan of Nutt, because I find him to be a not particularly believable character. But your argument that he has achieved perfection and therefore has nowhere to go narratively is one that could also be leveled at Moist, the William De Worde of Monstrous Regiment and UA, and, with Snuff, Sam Vimes himself.
Heading into real tangent territory here, but Nutt is really simply a non-human version of the "journey to virtue" narrative Pterry's had as a theme since at least Mort. Small Gods, The Truth, Guards Guards and Going Postal all start with powerless and flawed men who start at a baseline of either ignorance, mediocrity, or criminality but then work their work through a series of physical and or intellectual or moral challenges to reach their full potential as a valued and respected member of their particular society. (This same thing happens with Tiffany Aching in Wee Free Men, but one never really gets the sense that she was powerless.)
I'm not a big fan of Nutt, because I find him to be a not particularly believable character. But your argument that he has achieved perfection and therefore has nowhere to go narratively is one that could also be leveled at Moist, the William De Worde of Monstrous Regiment and UA, and, with Snuff, Sam Vimes himself.
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Never said you couldn't call these characters 'at the end' as well.
And you can. Sadly.
Though, if I may say this, what differs them from the orc is that they were giving, umm, 'on-screen-time' to bloom. We saw them grow, and advance their skills/learn their lessons.
With the orc I had the feeling all the book offers is a list of the skills he can already do in perfection and already did in perfection long before the story started and before he had even a chance to learn the actual skill.
On a note, if I may:
I am very certain I did not miss it, could it be we are never given a reason as to why margolotta took the orc in, trained him like that and then sent him to AM of all places?
Don't know about you, but she knew what he was like and still she sends him to a place were (theoretically) his whole behaviour will get him into trouble or at least give him a severe culture-shock. That's one of the things I feel sorry for the orc about. (And he should have confronted Lotta in a righteous pissed-off-dropping-all-good-behaviour-way for basically using him as a puppet in a perverse experiment)
And you can. Sadly.
Though, if I may say this, what differs them from the orc is that they were giving, umm, 'on-screen-time' to bloom. We saw them grow, and advance their skills/learn their lessons.
With the orc I had the feeling all the book offers is a list of the skills he can already do in perfection and already did in perfection long before the story started and before he had even a chance to learn the actual skill.
On a note, if I may:
I am very certain I did not miss it, could it be we are never given a reason as to why margolotta took the orc in, trained him like that and then sent him to AM of all places?
Don't know about you, but she knew what he was like and still she sends him to a place were (theoretically) his whole behaviour will get him into trouble or at least give him a severe culture-shock. That's one of the things I feel sorry for the orc about. (And he should have confronted Lotta in a righteous pissed-off-dropping-all-good-behaviour-way for basically using him as a puppet in a perverse experiment)
It was almost like it was the "cruel to be kind approach" in sending him to AM. She knew he was capable of more and capable of growing even further, possibly to the point of changing the world's opinions of Orcs as a species, but there was no way he could realise that potential where he was. Although it would be a massive culture shock to him to come to AM and deal with it it was something that he needed to go through IMO
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As said before: To where.
I mean, if he succeeds in changing people's views on orcs AND the whole race turns out to be remotely overskilled etc like him... Wouldn't we rather be at the same point we'd be with the golems in MM? As in: One might end with a nigh immortal race that can work hours on end and does everything in perfection so other workers aren't needed anymore?
I mean, if he succeeds in changing people's views on orcs AND the whole race turns out to be remotely overskilled etc like him... Wouldn't we rather be at the same point we'd be with the golems in MM? As in: One might end with a nigh immortal race that can work hours on end and does everything in perfection so other workers aren't needed anymore?
Why would Lady M want to suppress his personal growth on the grounds that he might unleash a super-race that would put humans out of work? Do you think genocide would be preferable, as happens elsewhere on the disc? What would be the alternative - to allow them to live as long as they never go to AM? Possibly this is the DW equivalent of migrant workers who are prepared to work longer hours for less money.
Nutt's potential cannot possibly be measured or even estimated. That's why he was sent to AM, and why Vetinari and Ridcully were keeping an eye on him.
Nutt's potential cannot possibly be measured or even estimated. That's why he was sent to AM, and why Vetinari and Ridcully were keeping an eye on him.
what I really don't understand about Lady Margolotta and Nutt, is why - as a vampire, as a member of a near-immortal ruling caste not noted for their generosity or compassion - she doesn't simply have them exterminated? This seems to be a fatal flaw in the whole idea.
It's clear from Fifth Elephant that the werewolves, when they manage to step beyond their natural limitations ( as does Wolfgang ), would be entirely capable of such a course, indeed it would seem to them the logical thing to do. It's also clear - whether from Angua chasing chickens during her "time", or Wolfgang leaping for the flare, that their natural limitations are ultimately insuperable.
Vampires in denial or abstinence seem to be deeply neurotic characters, whether it is Lady Margolotta's immersion in politics or Maladicta's coffee jitters. Otto Chriek is a curious example, because one can never be sure where the boundary between self-parody and genuine neurosis rests.
Lady Margolotta has grown up in a culture that sanctions the deliberate hunting and eating of humans, against a background of strict racial supremacism. What are her motives?
It's clear from Fifth Elephant that the werewolves, when they manage to step beyond their natural limitations ( as does Wolfgang ), would be entirely capable of such a course, indeed it would seem to them the logical thing to do. It's also clear - whether from Angua chasing chickens during her "time", or Wolfgang leaping for the flare, that their natural limitations are ultimately insuperable.
Vampires in denial or abstinence seem to be deeply neurotic characters, whether it is Lady Margolotta's immersion in politics or Maladicta's coffee jitters. Otto Chriek is a curious example, because one can never be sure where the boundary between self-parody and genuine neurosis rests.
Lady Margolotta has grown up in a culture that sanctions the deliberate hunting and eating of humans, against a background of strict racial supremacism. What are her motives?
I think she used to be a human some centuries ago, until some vampire bite her. And she did not forget it.
But there's also a fact that Nutt is a Black Hole Sue http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlackHoleSue and the whole story is bent to his will and needs.
But there's also a fact that Nutt is a Black Hole Sue http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlackHoleSue and the whole story is bent to his will and needs.
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Thank you, finally someone who does agree
(Why yes, I did come back to say this. Okay, actually I did come back for a different topic, but step by step)
The whole bit about M not killing the orc, left alone anyone sparing him, has little to nothing to do with her once having been human, but is rather another bit of the orc's sueishness.
I said it before and I say it again, there's so much Sue when it comes to the orc that I can't really believe Sir Terry is serious about the orc and did not write him that bad on purpose (possible as some subtle FU towards his publisher for demanding a book on football in time for the worldcup despite him not liking the sport)
(Why yes, I did come back to say this. Okay, actually I did come back for a different topic, but step by step)
The whole bit about M not killing the orc, left alone anyone sparing him, has little to nothing to do with her once having been human, but is rather another bit of the orc's sueishness.
I said it before and I say it again, there's so much Sue when it comes to the orc that I can't really believe Sir Terry is serious about the orc and did not write him that bad on purpose (possible as some subtle FU towards his publisher for demanding a book on football in time for the worldcup despite him not liking the sport)
I really can't see Terry's publisher "demanding" anything from him, sure they might suggest a theme through his agent but that's about as far is it goes, even for an author that's selling poorly. Let alone for someone with Pratchett's selling power.
Personally I didn't think that much of UU, a few characters were excellent (Pepe) and there were some good moments (The Librarian as a goalkeeper) but the plot was pretty thin on the ground and it really didn't interest me that much.
Nice to see you back LilMaibe.
Personally I didn't think that much of UU, a few characters were excellent (Pepe) and there were some good moments (The Librarian as a goalkeeper) but the plot was pretty thin on the ground and it really didn't interest me that much.
Nice to see you back LilMaibe.
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It remains a bit odd to see Sir Terry mention he has no thing for football, game or otherwise, in interviews (need to look up the exact quote) and yet have a book with just that topic (at leats in the frame works) come out in time for the worldcup (and it's movie version scheduled straight away for this year, in time for the european cup).
Many defend the book by saying 'it is not about football' to which I can only say, if it were truly just for how fans can be, why not pick a different sport, make up a new one or move from the topic of sports entirely.
On a further note, please, before anyone goes to say
-the orc is not a sue cause he hates himself/has low selfesteem/etc and that's totally a flaw-
If the self-hate, self-doubt, etc would actually hinder him to do anything and it would take a lot, and I mean a lot, to overcome it if only particular, then it could be counted as flaw.
But as it is it is a fake-flaw, something usually only bad authors put into a story to have something to point at and say -my character ain't no sue, he has this big flaw, see?-
If there is one thing the orc achieves then it is to be a character like every good author should avoid writing it.
Many defend the book by saying 'it is not about football' to which I can only say, if it were truly just for how fans can be, why not pick a different sport, make up a new one or move from the topic of sports entirely.
On a further note, please, before anyone goes to say
-the orc is not a sue cause he hates himself/has low selfesteem/etc and that's totally a flaw-
If the self-hate, self-doubt, etc would actually hinder him to do anything and it would take a lot, and I mean a lot, to overcome it if only particular, then it could be counted as flaw.
But as it is it is a fake-flaw, something usually only bad authors put into a story to have something to point at and say -my character ain't no sue, he has this big flaw, see?-
If there is one thing the orc achieves then it is to be a character like every good author should avoid writing it.