SPOILERS Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**
- Thread starter windscion
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I don't read books thinking "what point does the author want to make?" all the time; that is something which is only done for literature lessons. The author does not need to make a point; that's a mere invention of literature critics. But if I ever read a book like that I would easily spot the point in the example you give: It is the contrast between the very formal official life of a banker and the rather deviant private life. The message is along the line "Don't judge a book by its cover".
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Tonyblack said:
Do you mean The Last Continent? 
In LC it was winter and the Librarian had gone ill. In Eric there's a heatwave over the city and the Librarian is relaxing in the basement where they store the naughty book in barrels of icewater.I agree widely, but as mentioned before, I learned, in great part from Mr Pratchett's works, to actually think about the things I read, see, or even write.
A bad book leaves one, not only me, I'm certain, with a queasy feeling, whether one actually thought about the flow of events or not.
And it is especially off in a series like Discworld, as the things that baffled me are mistakes a beginner makes, not someone with a certain reputation AND editors and people who read the story even before the editor gets his hands on it.
It's the big picture these little things paint when put together that make me feel rather unwell.
I did not say I don't think about what I read; I just don't go "What is the author trying to tell me?" all the time. Since you are German you probably know Kurt Tucholsky. In his essay "Starter, die Fahne! Vorwärts mit 5 PS!" he describes his relationship with Siegfried Jacobsohn, the chief editor of the "Weltbühne", the magazine he was writing for. He mentioned his stylistic accuracy and that he often came to him showing him something he had written and asking: "What does that mean? It's cloudy", whereupon Tucholsky started in defense "I wanted to say that...", followed by some explanation, only to be interrupted by Jacobsohn with the words "Then say it"! That is what I want an author to stick to.
You are missing out on a very important and, what's more, extremely funny author; I think he was funnier than Pratchett even in his best works. "Where do the holes in the cheese come from?", for example; you will laugh your ass off when reading that. Or his novel "Castle Gripsholm".
What I am trying to say is: If you have to say something, bloody say it; don't wrap it up in mystery which we have to interpret afterwards.
What I am trying to say is: If you have to say something, bloody say it; don't wrap it up in mystery which we have to interpret afterwards.
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Might give him a try if I find his books (mind you, I mean what I say when I put 'entertainment vacuum of germany' in my locationinfo....)
And, okay, straight out:
Ever since 'Nightwatch' the number of glaring beginner's mistakes (mary-sue characters, gaping plotholes, logic holes, blatant continuity errors within a few pages, pointless scenes and more) and other things you just don't do in a good novel in the Discworld novels increased dramatically.
I want to know what the heck is going on as what I see there is NOT, and I did do my research on that, explainable by Mr Pratchett's Alzheimer's.
And, okay, straight out:
Ever since 'Nightwatch' the number of glaring beginner's mistakes (mary-sue characters, gaping plotholes, logic holes, blatant continuity errors within a few pages, pointless scenes and more) and other things you just don't do in a good novel in the Discworld novels increased dramatically.
I want to know what the heck is going on as what I see there is NOT, and I did do my research on that, explainable by Mr Pratchett's Alzheimer's.
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Naw, need to go to the city tomorrow anyway, will check the library.
As for beginner's mistakes, an example:
Utter pointless and padding scenes:
In UA Ponder gives the ball from the cabinet to the orc and Trevor.
Okay.
What follows are several pages that have no purpose.
Except for the text trying to hammer home Andy is evil and then, again, show us how skilled and awesome the orc is, because he knows anatomy like (likely) noone else, knows how the ball's copy will be made and what will be a bit complicated, he speaks fluent dwarfish better than a dwarf (and not even uberwaldean dwarfish, what would make sense, no) and finally the scene informs us of a fetish dress.
Actuall impact on the story? None
New, needed information? None
Telling us that the guy we are constantly told is evil is, in fact, evil? Yep
Obnoxiously glorifying the orc by telling us how awesome he is and what awesome skills he has? Hell yes.
Opinions might differ, but that is something you learn to avoid when writing.
-Don't tell your readers what opinion they are to have of a character.
-Especially don't constantly tell them.
etc.
And I doubt I need to mention what is wrong with Mary-Sues.
In Interesting Times the sueishness was played for laughs with Lord Hong, but in UA we are (constantly) told by the text to take the orc serious, root for him, feel sorry for him, be amazed by his skills etc.
As for beginner's mistakes, an example:
Utter pointless and padding scenes:
In UA Ponder gives the ball from the cabinet to the orc and Trevor.
Okay.
What follows are several pages that have no purpose.
Except for the text trying to hammer home Andy is evil and then, again, show us how skilled and awesome the orc is, because he knows anatomy like (likely) noone else, knows how the ball's copy will be made and what will be a bit complicated, he speaks fluent dwarfish better than a dwarf (and not even uberwaldean dwarfish, what would make sense, no) and finally the scene informs us of a fetish dress.
Actuall impact on the story? None
New, needed information? None
Telling us that the guy we are constantly told is evil is, in fact, evil? Yep
Obnoxiously glorifying the orc by telling us how awesome he is and what awesome skills he has? Hell yes.
Opinions might differ, but that is something you learn to avoid when writing.
-Don't tell your readers what opinion they are to have of a character.
-Especially don't constantly tell them.
etc.
And I doubt I need to mention what is wrong with Mary-Sues.
In Interesting Times the sueishness was played for laughs with Lord Hong, but in UA we are (constantly) told by the text to take the orc serious, root for him, feel sorry for him, be amazed by his skills etc.
Beckmesser and Stolzing are cgaracters in Richard Wagner's opera "Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg". It is about a contest of singers, and Stolzing.a newcomer, is harshly criticized by Beckmesser for all the faults in his song.. The German expressions "Er ist ein Beckmesser" or "Beckmesserei", refer to people who stick to strict rules and find fault in everything that is not according to the rules, but missing the actual beauty.
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Never heard that expression before. Are you certain it's not a local thing, Like 'Bolschen' for Bonbons (candy)?
While I see your point, I have to ask this:
I might not have seen the opera (as said, entertainment-vacuum) but I imagine that said character did not go and burp his song or 'play' his instruments by whacking it against a dead pig. (granted, there are people out there who would consider even that music)
The beginner's mistakes that spoil the recent books to me (and not only me, mind you) are like that though.
The rules broken here are rules, guidelines whatever you want to call it there to avoid spoiling a story.
It like the difference between
-Don't ever eat things considered fast food, because it's unhealthy- and -don't light your cigarette on the frigging high voltage line'
While I see your point, I have to ask this:
I might not have seen the opera (as said, entertainment-vacuum) but I imagine that said character did not go and burp his song or 'play' his instruments by whacking it against a dead pig. (granted, there are people out there who would consider even that music)
The beginner's mistakes that spoil the recent books to me (and not only me, mind you) are like that though.
The rules broken here are rules, guidelines whatever you want to call it there to avoid spoiling a story.
It like the difference between
-Don't ever eat things considered fast food, because it's unhealthy- and -don't light your cigarette on the frigging high voltage line'
"Beckmesser" is definitely not a local term.
I will re-read "Unseen Aademicals" and tell you what I think about your objections. I only read it once so far; it is one of the more recently acquired books of Pratchett we have.
Here a link to the definition of "Beckmesser" in the German version of Wikipedia:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beckmesser
I will re-read "Unseen Aademicals" and tell you what I think about your objections. I only read it once so far; it is one of the more recently acquired books of Pratchett we have.
Here a link to the definition of "Beckmesser" in the German version of Wikipedia:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beckmesser
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I know 'erbsenzählerei' for that...
Well, UA has a few bright moments, but sadly they feel rather scattered and often are spoiled by someone (the editor, perhabs? I'm certain Pratchett knows better) feeling the urge to explain the joke or just remind us of something we read a few pages ago.
On a side-note: Are you reading it in english or german, for, dear gods, the german translation is Hor-ri-ble. What were they thinking? (and I don't mean the sudden switch from 'Du' to 'Sie')
Well, UA has a few bright moments, but sadly they feel rather scattered and often are spoiled by someone (the editor, perhabs? I'm certain Pratchett knows better) feeling the urge to explain the joke or just remind us of something we read a few pages ago.
On a side-note: Are you reading it in english or german, for, dear gods, the german translation is Hor-ri-ble. What were they thinking? (and I don't mean the sudden switch from 'Du' to 'Sie')
A
Thank heavens. Seriously, the german translation is ....brrr....
EDIT: But to get back on topic (or at least attempting too)
I think what bothers me most about the scene with Pepe in UA was not that this vigilantism was there, but by who it was carried out.
If, as said, it would have been done by anyone who Andy did attack/threatened before, okay.
Carter, Trevor, even the orc.
Heck, even Billy would have made more sense, doing it so Andy won't go and upset his sister, who is happy now.
But Pepe?
Pepe just comes out of the blue (in every sense of the word).
What leads to another question: Seeing how pepe behaved throughtout the story, is he a psychic assassin or something?
EDIT: But to get back on topic (or at least attempting too)
I think what bothers me most about the scene with Pepe in UA was not that this vigilantism was there, but by who it was carried out.
If, as said, it would have been done by anyone who Andy did attack/threatened before, okay.
Carter, Trevor, even the orc.
Heck, even Billy would have made more sense, doing it so Andy won't go and upset his sister, who is happy now.
But Pepe?
Pepe just comes out of the blue (in every sense of the word).
What leads to another question: Seeing how pepe behaved throughtout the story, is he a psychic assassin or something?
Help! I'm confused here!
Wasn't there a thread here a moment or two ago simply called "Snuff", to which the last contributor was Baldjean, who made a comment about Angua's gender-inclinations being slightly derailed by Sally ? I'm sure there was as I contributed a reply. But the system was playing bougreurs risibles and posted my comment twice. I made to delete one of the two postings, it took ages and several error messages, and now the whole blooming thing's vanished... please don't tell me I deleted the entire thread! On the Latest Books index page, it has it that the last post was made in January 1970, and that cannot be right, can it?
Do we have a glitch here?
Wasn't there a thread here a moment or two ago simply called "Snuff", to which the last contributor was Baldjean, who made a comment about Angua's gender-inclinations being slightly derailed by Sally ? I'm sure there was as I contributed a reply. But the system was playing bougreurs risibles and posted my comment twice. I made to delete one of the two postings, it took ages and several error messages, and now the whole blooming thing's vanished... please don't tell me I deleted the entire thread! On the Latest Books index page, it has it that the last post was made in January 1970, and that cannot be right, can it?
Do we have a glitch here?
