SPOILERS Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

[BaldJean]

Re: Help! I'm confused here!

Wasn't there a thread here a moment or two ago simply called "Snuff", to which the last contributor was Baldjean, who made a comment about Angua's gender-inclinations being slightly derailed by Sally ? I'm sure there was as I contributed a reply. But the system was playing bougreurs risibles and posted my comment twice. I made to delete one of the two postings, it took ages and several error messages, and now the whole blooming thing's vanished... please don't tell me I deleted the entire thread! On the Latest Books index page, it has it that the last post was made in January 1970, and that cannot be right, can it?

Do we have a glitch here?

Don't worry; the thread is still there, and I read your comment. I personally think not only does Sally have a crush on both Angua and Carrot, but Angua also has a crush on Sally, even if she won't admit it. Why else would she fight down her natural werewolf antipathy against vampires with such vigor? Merely because the two have to work together? To me that sounds like a rationalization of her real feelings.
Also note her constant remarks to Sally of the kind "This does not mean we are friends". To me these are just another example of her trying to fight down her real feelings

 

[raisindot]

Re: Help! I'm confused here!

Don't worry; the thread is still there, and I read your comment. I personally think not only does Sally have a crush on both Angua and Carrot, but Angua also has a crush on Sally, even if she won't admit it. Why else would she fight down her natural werewolf antipathy against vampires with such vigor? Merely because the two have to work together? To me that sounds like a rationalization of her real feelings.
Also note her constant remarks to Sally of the kind "This does not mean we are friends". To me these are just another example of her trying to fight down her real feelings

Wishful thinking, totally unproven by the narrative. It would have been extremely interesting and quite wonderful if this were true. Alas, there;'s no evidence at all.

There's no evidence at all that Sally has a crush on Angua, although she does have a crush on Carrot, which she clearly "thinks". Angua fights down her antipathy against vampires because, as a member of the Watch and an officer, she has to suppress her antipathy toward other species because this is what her alpha male, Carrot, expects of her. Just because Cheery gets along with Detritus doesn't mean she's in love with him or vice versa. That Angua is jealous of Sally's looks has nothing to do with sexual attraction--it's the reaction of one woman who feels inferior to another and is afraid of losing her man to her.

Wouldn't you think that in the scene in the tunnel when the two are walking naked through the mud that, if Angua really was attracted to Sally it would have been her, rather than Sally, who had the joke about mud wrestling? Wouldn't there have been some dialogue about either Angua's discomfort at seeing Sally naked or Sally making (or thinking) some comment about Angua? Shouldn't there have been some sort of narrative hint of SOMETHING happening down there?

There's simply no real evidence at all here. And Pterry isn't afraid to portraying lesbians--he certainly did so quite openly in Monstrous Regiment. And the fact that Sally hasn't made an appearance in any of the books following Thud (while Angua has) demonstrates that Pterry wasn't thinking along these lines.

When all else fails, trust the text. It just ain't there in Thud.

 

[BaldFriede]

There are no lesbians in "Monstrous Regiment"; I wonder where you get that notion from.

 

[DaveC]

There are no lesbians in "Monstrous Regiment"; I wonder where you get that notion from.

? Raisin just said there were...

And Pterry isn't afraid
to portraying lesbians--he
certainly did so quite openly in
Monstrous Regiment.

 

[BaldFriede]

There are no lesbians in "Monstrous Regiment"; I wonder where you get that notion from.

? Raisin just said there were...

And Pterry isn't afraid
to portraying lesbians--he
certainly did so quite openly in
Monstrous Regiment.

Raisin is wrong. There are no lesbians in "Monstrous Regiment" at all. If he refers to Tonker and Lofty - for Goddesses sake, they are not lesbians! There is nothing sexual in their relationship at all. They are soul-mates because they have both been broken in their youths, and they happen to be of the same sex, but they are literally incapable of having a sexual relationship. If that is a lesbian relationship then my mother is the Queen of Great Britain!

 

[Anonymous]

Fried, could it be you just count something as lesbian when there's explicit making out in the text?
Those two ARE lesbian.

Just because it ain't said outright....

 

[windscion]

LM, I think we should bow to Bald's expertise in this area.

 

[BaldFriede]

Fried, could it be you just count something as lesbian when there's explicit making out in the text?
Those two ARE lesbian.

Just because it ain't said outright....

They are definitely not lesbian; their actual gender does not play any role at all in their relationship. There is nothing sexual going on between them, not only not in the book but nowhere at all; they don't have a sexuality, only a gender. They are soul-mates who just happen to be of the same gender, that's all.

 

[Anonymous]

wind, or view her as someone who's likely sated and prejudiced, seeing where she lives.

Seriously...

"We don't see them f*cking or anything, they aren't together" is one of the most retarded statements I have heard in a long while.

 

[raisindot]

Just because it ain't said outright....

They are definitely not lesbian; their actual gender does not play any role at all in their relationship. There is nothing sexual going on between them, not only not in the book but nowhere at all; they don't have a sexuality, only a gender. They are soul-mates who just happen to be of the same gender, that's all.[/quote]

So, by your definition, if people don't actually have sex they can't be lovers, even if all other signs point to a committed relationship. Wow. What a narrow view of love. So, you don't think that Tonker and Lofty are lesbians--or at least two women in a loving relationship with eachother--but you DO think that Sally and Angua have lesbian tendencies, despite absolute textual evidence of this?

I humbly admit I can never truly know what lesbianism is. But I have a pretty good idea of what love is. Tonker and Lofty love each other. Angua and Sally do not have sexual feelings for each other.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh, raisin, I got it. Maybe Tonker and Lofty aren't 'cute enough together'

 

[BaldFriede]

wind, or view her as someone who's likely sated and prejudiced, seeing where she lives.

Seriously...

"We don't see them f*cking or anything, they aren't together" is one of the most retarded statements I have heard in a long while.

It is one of the most retarded statements to claim I said that, to be honest. My point is they have been broken; they don't have any sexuality. Whatever goes on between them is not sexual at all.

 

[BaldFriede]

No, of course they are lovers, in a way. But to make them lesbian something sexual has to go on between them, in my opinion. If we use the word "homosexual" instead of "lesbian" it is a bit more obvious. Their love is platonic. Is a mother a lesbian because she loves her daughter? Surely not.

 

[Anonymous]

Geese, folks, fix your quotes

 

[stripy_tie]

Re: Help! I'm confused here!

Don't worry; the thread is still there, and I read your comment. I personally think not only does Sally have a crush on both Angua and Carrot, but Angua also has a crush on Sally, even if she won't admit it. Why else would she fight down her natural werewolf antipathy against vampires with such vigor? Merely because the two have to work together? To me that sounds like a rationalization of her real feelings.
Also note her constant remarks to Sally of the kind "This does not mean we are friends". To me these are just another example of her trying to fight down her real feelings

Wishful thinking, totally unproven by the narrative. It would have been extremely interesting and quite wonderful if this were true. Alas, there;'s no evidence at all.

There's no evidence at all that Sally has a crush on Angua, although she does have a crush on Carrot, which she clearly "thinks". Angua fights down her antipathy against vampires because, as a member of the Watch and an officer, she has to suppress her antipathy toward other species because this is what her alpha male, Carrot, expects of her. Just because Cheery gets along with Detritus doesn't mean she's in love with him or vice versa. That Angua is jealous of Sally's looks has nothing to do with sexual attraction--it's the reaction of one woman who feels inferior to another and is afraid of losing her man to her.

Wouldn't you think that in the scene in the tunnel when the two are walking naked through the mud that, if Angua really was attracted to Sally it would have been her, rather than Sally, who had the joke about mud wrestling? Wouldn't there have been some dialogue about either Angua's discomfort at seeing Sally naked or Sally making (or thinking) some comment about Angua? Shouldn't there have been some sort of narrative hint of SOMETHING happening down there?

There's simply no real evidence at all here. And Pterry isn't afraid to portraying lesbians--he certainly did so quite openly in Monstrous Regiment. And the fact that Sally hasn't made an appearance in any of the books following Thud (while Angua has) demonstrates that Pterry wasn't thinking along these lines.

When all else fails, trust the text. It just ain't there in Thud.

Lovely bit of common sense here, not that it'll do much good.

 

[BaldJean]

We all see different things in books; that's what makes books so great.

As to the debate about Tonker and Lofty being lesbians: I totally agree with Friede that they are not. There is nothing sexual in their relationship at all. There is love, yes, but it is totally asexual. That love does not make them lesbians at all. Love between persons of the same gender happens all the time; as long as there is no sexual act involved, however, we don't call them "gay" or "lesbian". And from the way Tonker and Lofty are being depicted, as broken people, I sincerely doubt they are capable of sexual actions.

 

[Anonymous]

And I say it again:

Why do some people need onscreen action?
That's just something that's beyond me.

EDIT:
snatched this from the CA-forum, hoping the quote is accurate:

'Tonker?' said Polly.

'Oh, yes. Hadn't you spotted her? She went mad when the man charged at Lofty. Now, let's have a look at your gentlemen, shall we?' said Maladict, heading for the inn door.

'But Lofty and Tonker . . .' Polly began, running to keep up. 'I mean, the way they act, they . . . I thought she was his girl . . . but I thought Tonker . . . I mean, I know Lofty is a gi—'

Even in the dark, Maladict's teeth gleamed as he smiled. 'The world's certainly unfolding itself for you, eh?'

from the first bit one might say 'Okay, soulmates'
But if there has been actions, on or offscreen that even make one of the character see them as actual couple....

 

[BaldJean]

And I say it again:

Why do some people need onscreen action?
That's just something that's beyond me.

What onscreen action are you talking about? Friede and I believe there is neither onscreen nor off-screen action between them. I could ask the opposite question: Why do you have to believe there is something sexual going on between them? Nothing in the novel hints at that.

 

[Anonymous]

With onscreen action I mean what it says on the tin:

Some people are seemingly incapable of getting subtext.
If it is not clearly said that someone is dead/evil/pregnant/homosexual/passed the exam (not kidding with that)/etc some people will NOT believe it.

 

[BaldFriede]

With onscreen action I mean what it says on the tin:

Some people are seemingly incapable of getting subtext.
If it is not clearly said that someone is dead/evil/pregnant/homosexual/passed the exam (not kidding with that)/etc some people will NOT believe it.

And some people are seemingly creating subtext too. Sorry, even this quote does not make me think of them as lesbians. The way they are depicted they are broken people. They cling to each other and support each other, but there is nothing sexual going on between them.
If there were the slightest hint that they are lesbian I would be the first to embrace that, you can trust me on that. But there isn't.