SPOILERS Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

[stripy_tie]

I'm still not sure where this discussion begins or where it ends, it's broken out onto 3 different threads.

I'm not against fan fiction (though i'd never write or read any) it just pisses me off when someone takes their interpretation of something ( i.e this whole angua and sally thing) and argues it as fact while also deeming everyone else's opinion to be completely wrong.

All this while having no evidence whatsoever for what they're saying.

 

[BaldJean]

A non-platonic relationship between Lofty and Tonker is implied by the author. The conversation between Maladicta and wosshername definitely tells us, without using a mallet, that they are a couple. Whether or not they are having sex is irrelevant - they are still very young and these things come with time.

As for "broken", they set fire to the orphanage. They're not broken, just bashed. And, literature has other cases of apparently broken people having loving sexual relationships afterwards (such as The Colour Purple).

Suggesting that Thelma and Louise might therefore be considered lesbians is a bit silly.

No, the conversation you mention does not do anything of that kind. Is Maladict(a) giving an eyewitness report? No, he/she is just leering.
And don't twist my words around; I never said Thelma and Louise were lesbians; on the contrary. But they are obviously the role model Pratchett used for Tonker and Lofty. Or do you think it is a coincidence that they have the same initials?

 

[stripy_tie]

No, the conversation you mention does not do anything of that kind. Is Maladict(a) giving an eyewitness report? No, he/she is just leering.
And don't twist my words around; I never said Thelma and Louise were lesbians; on the contrary. But they are obviously the role model Pratchett used for Tonker and Lofty. Or do you think it is a coincidence that they have the same initials?

That's like saying both the word chimney and the word car begin with the letter c, basically correct but it has nothing to do with what's being argued about. Sounds pretty coincidental to me

Suppose if they were somewhat inspired by thelma and louise (which i don't think they are) why would that make any difference? Pratchett doesn't then have to conform to every aspect of someone else's characters.

He can do whatever the hell he likes, it's called being an author.

 

[pip]

I love the strange connections Frieda / Jane seem to be able to make to justify there arguments. Seriously. Your using very iffy film connections to justify halfcocked ideas only you guys can or can't see in DW books.
There is definitely a lot more to say Lofty and Tonkers are Lesbian than there is to say they aren't and in the same way there is zero to none showing Sally and Angua as Lesbians. Thje whole they don't like each other but then have to work together and then develop a respect doesn't mean theres a sexual element and no where at all is it hinted at by Terry .
Its the classic mismatched cops done from a female direction.
Frankly Riggs and Murtagh were never going to get it on so why will the girls.
Seriously odd train of logic going on to see that.
Something openly hinted at is wrong but something so obscure no one can see is right.

 

[DaveC]

Sorry for the multiple posts...

 

[pip]

Its all falling apart without Tony

 

[BaldJean]

It is obviously not; there are many similarities between Thelma and Louise and Tonker and Lofty. And do you remember the last time that Tonker and Lofty are being mentioned in "Monstrous Regiment (ltough indirectly only)? That is a definite nod towards "Thelma and "Louise".
It is quite interesting that men like the idea of two women being lesbians; I always get the feeling they feed on the hope they could be included in a menage à trois. Maybe it is time to remove a few misconceptions many men have about lesbians.
1) Lesbians can easily be spotted; they have short hair and a masculine appearance.
Wrong. There are lesbians like that, but many, if not most lesbians are so-called "lipstick lesbians"; they dress femininely and wear their hair long. There is no difference in appearance between them and heterosexual women.
2) A lesbian is born a lesbian.
Wrong; many lesbians (I for example) become lesbians after their first incidental encounter with a woman.
3) In a lesbian relationship one woman, and always the same one, takes the "male" part with artificial devices.
Wrong. While it is true that artificial devices are sometimes being used, a lot of lesbian sex happens without the use of them, and when these devices are used the partners switch in using them. Nevertheless this is an incredibly common belief; you have no idea how often Friede and I have been asked who is the "man" in our relationship.

 

[pip]

It is obviously not; there are many similarities between Thelma and Louise and Tonker and Lofty. And do you remember the last time that Tonker and Lofty are being mentioned in "Monstrous Regiment (ltough indirectly only)? That is a definite nod towards "Thelma and "Louise".
It is quite interesting that men like the idea of two women being lesbians; I always get the feeling they feed on the hope they could be included in a menage à trois. Maybe it is time to remove a few misconceptions many men have about lesbians.
1) Lesbians can easily be spotted; they have short hair and a masculine appearance.
Wrong. There are lesbians like that, but many, if not most lesbians are so-called "lipstick lesbians"; they dress femininely and wear their hair long. There is no difference in appearance between them and heterosexual women.
2) A lesbian is born a lesbian.
Wrong; many lesbians (I for example) become lesbians after their first incidental encounter with a woman.
3) In a lesbian relationship one woman, and always the same one, takes the "male" part with artificial devices.
Wrong. While it is true that artificial devices are sometimes being used, a lot of lesbian sex happens without the use of them, and when these devices are used the partners switch in using them. Nevertheless this is an incredibly common belief; you have no idea how often Friede and I have been asked who is the "man" in our relationship.

Whats that got to do with the books or Lofty and Tonks.
I don't think any male on the forum fantasises about Lofty and Tonks. I do know a certain pair of German ladies who are fantasising about Sally and Angua though

And the whole threesome thing is also a generalisation brought about by teen flick garbage. Most men in long term relationships will acknowledge that one woman is more than enough. You can't argue against one set of generalisations while spoutin another

 

[stripy_tie]

It is quite interesting that men like the idea of two women being lesbians; I always get the feeling they feed on the hope they could be included in a menage à trois. Maybe it is time to remove a few misconceptions many men have about lesbians.
1) Lesbians can easily be spotted; they have short hair and a masculine appearance.
Wrong. There are lesbians like that, but many, if not most lesbians are so-called "lipstick lesbians"; they dress femininely and wear their hair long. There is no difference in appearance between them and heterosexual women.
2) A lesbian is born a lesbian.
Wrong; many lesbians (I for example) become lesbians after their first incidental encounter with a woman.
3) In a lesbian relationship one woman, and always the same one, takes the "male" part with artificial devices.
Wrong. While it is true that artificial devices are sometimes being used, a lot of lesbian sex happens without the use of them, and when these devices are used the partners switch in using them. Nevertheless this is an incredibly common belief; you have no idea how often Friede and I have been asked who is the "man" in our relationship.

Why are you telling us this? has anyone here said any different? my friend Rosie's gay and she's probably the most girly girl i know.

As a straight guy i have to admit i found this a bit offensive and more than a little sexist towards men.

 

[pip]

Thanks Stripey. Some people forget respect and tolerance is a two way street

 

[Dotsie]

Whats that got to do with the books or Lofty and Tonks.
I don't think any male on the forum fantasises about Lofty and Tonks. I do know a certain pair of German ladies who are fantasising about Sally and Angua though

And the whole threesome thing is also a generalisation brought about by teen flick garbage. Most men in long term relationships will acknowledge that one woman is more than enough. You can't argue against one set of generalisations while spoutin another

Ah pip, you'e so wise! I completely agree with everything you've said here

 

[stripy_tie]

Whats that got to do with the books or Lofty and Tonks.
I don't think any male on the forum fantasises about Lofty and Tonks. I do know a certain pair of German ladies who are fantasising about Sally and Angua though

And the whole threesome thing is also a generalisation brought about by teen flick garbage. Most men in long term relationships will acknowledge that one woman is more than enough. You can't argue against one set of generalisations while spoutin another

Exactly.

 

[DaveC]

Why are the bald ladies thinking that we are so innocent and prejudiced about this stuff. There are ancient cliches...

 

[BaldJean]

I do not say all men harbor these fantasies, but we have quite often been asked by men if they may join us, "at least to watch you two" (which probably meant "and hoping I can join in"). I am not making this up.

 

[BaldJean]

Why are the bald ladies thinking that we are so innocent and prejudiced about this stuff. There are ancient cliches...

I did not address anyone specific, so feel free to be excepted; these are just things we have encountered again and again. Of course all members of this forum are definitely not like that. And Brutus is an honorable man.

 

[pip]

You said men like. Not some men , or men we've come across. It was definitley an all encompassing brush stroke. You gals are quite open about yourselves and seem to play the part with the comic book thing if i remember correctly so your coming into contact with a people because of this i assume . Might explain a bit of it at least .

 

[stripy_tie]

Just one thing.

"A lesbian is born a lesbian.
Wrong; many lesbians (I for example) become lesbians after their first incidental encounter with a woman. "

From what i've read and what most people (including gay people) seem to agree with is that sexuality is pretty much set in stone from birth. Some people (like yourself it would seem) can go a long time without realizing they actually prefer the same sex but that would still put you at a 4-5 on the kinsey scale.

Suggesting that sexuality can be completely changed at will is actually a pretty dangerous thing to do, there are numerous "Ex-gay" institutes and religious organizations around the world who use arguments like that to pressure and bully gay people into thinking they can become heterosexual and that being gay is somehow a choice made by them.

 

[high eight]

eight, as said, please read my stuff before you judge me.

Here's one of my finished ones.

And what is so unbelievable prudish about saying
'it's unsettling that in the recent books sex and scat seem to get put into the story soley to have them in there' ?

Because they don't? There is the occasional double entendre. They have always been there - it's British humour.

(And please note the 'seem' )

Well, yes or no? Please don't say something you don't mean.

2. Are you trying to say that 'true and good fans' should never ever think about what they read, not form an opinion of something and never, gods beware, come up with theories as to how things are connected, etc?

No - criticism is OK if it makes sense, but yours seems to be more a bunch of (pretty random) opinions about how plots should go and what characters should act like or even if they should exist. That smacks more of fanwank than reviewing. Perhaps it is just me. I freely admit I don't like fanfiction or it's creators much.

 

[high eight]

Whoops! Double-posted! Sorry!

 

[high eight]

Whilst I don't agree with Meeps all the time, she does write some stonking good fan fiction, Eight.

That could be the problem. I think that "stonking good fan fiction" is an oxymoron.

We are all entitled to our own opinions after all!

As, indeed, am I