SPOILERS Disturbing Trend in UA and Snuff: **Major Spoilers**

[stripy_tie]

I never claimed his other books were perfect through and through.
But there's a difference between a papercut and a missing arm.
And how is that self-pitying?

EDIT: Frankly now, someone please explain to me the logic behind some of you people's reaction and behaviour towards me.
I say I don't like the book for reading near nothing like Discworld to me due to the increased amount of longwinded dialogue, monologueing, endless explaining of jokes and concepts, pointless padding, discontinuety within the story, established characters being not themself, heavy and widespread contradiction of established things, hammering home of morals that don't even go with what the characters actually do and more
and all I hear from you is that I'm a bad person for not liking the book and that I just don't get it and am therefore stupid and should shut up till I finally see how awesome the book is 'in reality'.
What?
(Granted, that was a bit self-pitying, but for heaven's sake, wouldn't you get more and more aggressive if people would try to force an opinion on you?)

We're not trying to force any opinion on you, just picking apart poorly reasoned arguments and pointing out blatant untruths. I'm sure i've said this before but i will again for your benefit, i really didn't like or enjoy Snuff and UA but the difference between me and you is that i don't keep going on and on and on about it

What Discworld books do you actually enjoy?.

 

[Anonymous]

We're not trying to force any opinion on you, just picking apart poorly reasoned arguments and pointing out blatant untruths. I'm sure i've said this before but i will again for your benefit, i really didn't like or enjoy Snuff and UA but the difference between me and you is that i don't keep going on and on and on about it

What Discworld books do you actually enjoy?.

In no particular order:
Last Continent, Reaper Man, Lords&Ladies, Going Postal, Small Gods, Hogfather, Interesting Times, Feet of Clay, Men at Arms, Guards!Guards!, Colour of Magic, Light Fantastic, Science of Discworld, Soul Music, Moving Pictures,Jingo, Nightwatch
Those are those I enjoyed most.

 

[alicenanjing]

I don't think that "not getting" one or several of Sir Terry's books means that one is stupid or that one should feel that others might think so. I myself do not understand at all what Monstrous Regiment has to say, it has to be more than the obvious feminist statement, everyone knows that gels can hold their own, they're in all the major armies for chrissakes, the book has to be about more than that, but WHAT? And Making Money: it has all the right ingredients, twists and turns, good ideas, interesting values, and for the life of me I can't figure out why it feels to me more like a collection of characters and situations than the living, sparkling thing that I expected. I don't "get" it. Do I feel stupid? No, can't say that I do.

 

[Anonymous]

Making Money is weird...I don't know about your others, but it felt as if a part of the book was missing near the end.
I somewhere read someone descripe it as -Discworld as written by david lynch- (thankfully it's not THAT weird and confusing)

 

[Ziriath]

Yeah, what I remember, was.....fog, Moist climbing the wall....fog, fog, stygium ring, fog.........four thousand golems....that dog and the dildo..golem horse.....fog...pineaple cake.....that guy who wants to be Vetinari, burns his finger off....fog.

 

[Anonymous]

I also remember a machine that alters reality, but somehow that was not interesting or important InUniverse...I think...

 

[Anonymous]

On a complete different note on UA: Could someone please give me the line(s) that explain(s) why the orc was spared and why exactly Margolotta took him in and things?
On a different forum someone else was verbally attacked for saying the book never gives the explanation, with the attack claiming he (the original poster) is just too stupid to read a book and that it is clearly spelled out in the text. Right now we are trying to prove that guy wrong as he couldn't give a pagenumber.
Are we wrong and it is given very clearly in the text or is he wrong (well, he also claimed Carter attacked Andy in the end...)

 

[high eight]

On a complete different note on UA: Could someone please give me the line(s) that explain(s) why the orc was spared and why exactly Margolotta took him in and things?
On a different forum someone else was verbally attacked for saying the book never gives the explanation, with the attack claiming he (the original poster) is just too stupid to read a book and that it is clearly spelled out in the text. Right now we are trying to prove that guy wrong as he couldn't give a pagenumber.
Are we wrong and it is given very clearly in the text or is he wrong (well, he also claimed Carter attacked Andy in the end...)

Pages 390 - 392 Doubleday hardback edition. The discussion between Vetinari and Lady Margolotta over dinner - relevant quotes:

"And they had nothing" said Margolotta "No culture, no legends, no history - he could give them those" [P391]

"They deserve their chance and it must be taken now, while the world is at Peace" [P391]

(Vetinari): - "There should be no slaves, even slaves to instinct"
"One person can make a difference" said Margolotta [P391]

And then Lady Margolotta asks Mr Nutt to go to Uberwald and bring the surviving orcs out of the dark (as she puts it) [P394]

Add that to Mr Nutt own memories after he psychoanalyses himself and Margolottas plan becomes perfectly obvious. [Various pages from P268 to the end of the book]

So yes, I would say that you are wrong and the person who originally brought up the subject is pretty dumb.

Sorry if that wasn't what you wanted to hear.

 

[Anonymous]

No, that's not exactly what I meant, but...well, thanks. I was looking for the 'greater' reason. He claims that the books gives Margo's motive why she took the orc in, why he was spared and why she wants him to aid the others back into society (as in -why she wants them 'out of the dark'-).
Got that quote by chance?

EDIT: To elaborate:
In said thread the comparsion to the warcraft-story 'lord of the clans' was brought up (not by me, before anyone accuses me) as the human there had a reason to take the orc-child in (take over the world by teaching the child the heights of human civilization aka tactical warfare) while in UA no real reason is given. We assumed that -boredom- was Margo's reason before that bloke came up and accussed the whole thread of being to stupid to read and that her reason is clearly given in the text.
I'm pretty certain he's a troll, though. But better safe than sorry.

 

[high eight]

No, that's not exactly what I meant, but...well, thanks. I was looking for the 'greater' reason. He claims that the books gives Margo's motive why she took the orc in, why he was spared and why she wants him to aid the others back into society (as in -why she wants them 'out of the dark'-).
Got that quote by chance?

EDIT: To elaborate:
In said thread the comparsion to the warcraft-story 'lord of the clans' was brought up (not by me, before anyone accuses me) as the human there had a reason to take the orc-child in (take over the world by teaching the child the heights of human civilization aka tactical warfare) while in UA no real reason is given. We assumed that -boredom- was Margo's reason before that bloke came up and accussed the whole thread of being to stupid to read and that her reason is clearly given in the text.
I'm pretty certain he's a troll, though. But better safe than sorry.

I think the quotes I gave ARE the reason. Pastor Oates found a small colony of surviving orcs in Far Uberwald and told Margolotta about them - she decided (partly through altruism but perhaps partly also to relieve the boredom of immortality - she is a pretty ancient vampire, after all.) to see if they could be civilised. Nutt was sent to the big city to prove it one way or the other.

Typically, it was Vetinari who summed up the reason in one sentence (but then he is that type of person): - "There should be no slaves, even slaves to instinct" - and perhaps he had a selfish motive as well. Imagine Ankh-Morpork being the only state on the Disc with an army of orcs.......

Terry doesn't explicitly state all this, of course. He is too subtle a writer for that - but I think that the subtext is there.

 

[Anonymous]

Can the thing with Oats actually work chronological?

In any case, you have proven that bloke wrong, as the text giv no clear reason as to why the orc was spared and taken in.

 

[high eight]

Can the think with Oats actually work chronological?

In any case, you have proven that bloke wrong, as the text giv no clear reason as to why the orc was spared and taken in.

What 'thing'? Carpe Juglum was years before UA

I think I've proved him right. The reasons I gave in my last post were reason enough. Lady Margolotta did it as an act of charity. - And if you're trying to raise a gang to bully this fellow just because he likes UA and you don't, include me OUT. :naughty:

 

[Anonymous]

Carpe Jugulum, yes, but... the orc was already seven when Oats freed him. The thread, btw, has decided he was wrong, as he claimed we were given a reason beyond -I want to see if I can turn them into useful members of society because I am so bored right now-

 

[alicenanjing]

Well, for my money, Lady Margolotta is an altruistic person, believe it or not - don't forget she was the one who came up with the Black Ribboners idea, and she was the main sponsor and supporter of the members. Remember, there was a passage in The Fifth Elephant where she leaves what she was doing in order to go to a meeting, because, as she puts it, "Everyone gets so despondent if I'm not there" - or words to that effect. Add that to the fact that it's against a vampire's nature to help another vampire, as another member of the species is basically a competitor, and the picture that emerges is that of a real humanitarian, so to speak. So it's quite logical that she would want to rescue an enslaved child, even if it is an orc child, or help another species out of its terrible situation. It's just the type of person she is.

 

[Ziriath]

Somewhere, maybe in Carpe jugulum, was something like this : ''There are many ways to kill a vampire. Almost as many as vampire species.''.
Some of them have wings (Dragon King), some of them not and can fly without them (The Magpyrs, Margolotta), some of them can turn into a bat, a lot of bats, other animals, even fog (The Magpyrs, Sally, that vampire in Witches abroad, that guy in Reaper man), the other ones do not seem to be able to fly or turn into something else (except ashes)- Otto Chriek, Maladict.
Also there are vampires, who have been born as vampires (Vlad and Lacrimosa), and vampires who used to be humans (Mrs. Magpyr, that guy from Reaper man (do not know his name in English original), some young man from Carpe Jugulum), until they was bitten by a vampire. The latter ones remember the time before they become vampires. I think Margolotta is one of them and has to deal with humanity in a body of vampire.

 

[alicenanjing]

Could be.

 

[Anonymous]

Or the reason is a bigger plan to finish what the evil empire couldn't achieve through deceiving everyone into thinking that vampires and orcs are friendly now.
It is just as possible, isn't it?

 

[Ziriath]

I agree, but right now I am not speaking about the orc thingy only ( UA is not a 'canon' book for me anyway). I think about the 'black ribboners' and why she doesn't drink human blood.

 

[high eight]

( UA is not a 'canon' book for me anyway).

Yep, if canon collides with fanon, it's always canon that is wrong.........

 

[Anonymous]

I agree, but right now I am not speaking about the orc thingy only ( UA is not a 'canon' book for me anyway). I think about the 'black ribboners' and why she doesn't drink human blood.

As said, it could be everything. From that she actually wants to make peace, over an allergy to a decoy (she has an igor, so there is a possibility she drinks conserved blood in secret)

And H8: You keep using that word. I doubt it means what you think it means.