SPOILERS Dodger **Spoilers**
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
I'm just halfway through Dodger and had to share something I think hasn't been commented on before. Solomon is repairing a watch and says " I look forward to making a sprocket or two".
When the musical of Dodger comes out, I suggest "you've got to make a sprocket or two" should be one of the major songs, and I can point you to ideal music for it.
When the musical of Dodger comes out, I suggest "you've got to make a sprocket or two" should be one of the major songs, and I can point you to ideal music for it.
I hadn't thought of that and I certainly wouldn't put it past Terry to slip something like that in there.
I enjoyed Snuff, I thought it was a nice goodbye to the Duke. I'm finding PTerry is telling more than he's showing in these last few books.
But I loved Nation. Could not put it down and the ending was just blissful for me. I wish that had happened in real life.
Dodger not so much. I found it shallow and not up to the standard of earlier YA. It was still a good read but certainly not one of my favourites.
But I loved Nation. Could not put it down and the ending was just blissful for me. I wish that had happened in real life.
Dodger not so much. I found it shallow and not up to the standard of earlier YA. It was still a good read but certainly not one of my favourites.
Dodger isn't actually in the same world as Nation. In Nation, there is an entirely different ruler of England. In Dodger, the queen is Victoria.
I would have liked another story set in the universe of Nation. It need not have been a direct sequel; I just like the idea of a completely different succession with very different ideas about individual nations' rights. I'm fond of Joan Aiken's series set in such a world (The Wolves of Willoughby Chase and sequels).
I would have liked another story set in the universe of Nation. It need not have been a direct sequel; I just like the idea of a completely different succession with very different ideas about individual nations' rights. I'm fond of Joan Aiken's series set in such a world (The Wolves of Willoughby Chase and sequels).
These days I finally read and enjoy “Dodger” (“Perillán” in Spanish). I bought it because everything with the name Pratchett on it is irresistible for me but I was afraid that Dodger could be more of the same. I was completely wrong, nothing’s further from the truth.
Pratchett has surprised me again showing me another facet of his writing style and demonstrating once more his skill to create unique and deep characters.
I saw Dodger as, over all, an amazing display of Pratchett’s knowledge about London and what comes to be the hopeful message of (as they say in Spain): “¡Al loro! ¡Que no estamos tan mal!” – “Watch out! We aren’t that bad!”
In Europe there may be poverty and problems with social security among others, but just to think how people managed to survive in places like the 19th century London...
I suddenly feel astonishingly lucky, don’t you?
Moreover, as I said before, I really thought this critique would come through a Discworld style book, but Pratchett knew how to change sides and made me enjoy equally.
Really, at the beginning I started to see DW similarities (as some of you have said) but I believe was just imagining things. Of course you can see where some of his criticisms come from (Ankh Morpork is clearly a mix between London and New York) but this one takes a different way.
On the other hand, it’s true there were parts of the book that were a little repetitive, but each bit shed more light on the matter.
Incidentally, I read Sir Terry wanted to write a sequel. Are there any news about it?
Mx
P.s. I loved Nation the second time I read it, but its ending always makes me sad... :’( I prefer Dodger style endings.
P.s. 2 Has Snuff to be the last Watch book??? I personally think Vimes development is the best in the whole Discworld... I wouldn’t like to say goodbye to him!
Pratchett has surprised me again showing me another facet of his writing style and demonstrating once more his skill to create unique and deep characters.
I saw Dodger as, over all, an amazing display of Pratchett’s knowledge about London and what comes to be the hopeful message of (as they say in Spain): “¡Al loro! ¡Que no estamos tan mal!” – “Watch out! We aren’t that bad!”
In Europe there may be poverty and problems with social security among others, but just to think how people managed to survive in places like the 19th century London...
I suddenly feel astonishingly lucky, don’t you?Moreover, as I said before, I really thought this critique would come through a Discworld style book, but Pratchett knew how to change sides and made me enjoy equally.
Really, at the beginning I started to see DW similarities (as some of you have said) but I believe was just imagining things. Of course you can see where some of his criticisms come from (Ankh Morpork is clearly a mix between London and New York) but this one takes a different way.
On the other hand, it’s true there were parts of the book that were a little repetitive, but each bit shed more light on the matter.
Incidentally, I read Sir Terry wanted to write a sequel. Are there any news about it?
Mx
P.s. I loved Nation the second time I read it, but its ending always makes me sad... :’( I prefer Dodger style endings.
P.s. 2 Has Snuff to be the last Watch book??? I personally think Vimes development is the best in the whole Discworld... I wouldn’t like to say goodbye to him!
Mixa you should check out Henry Mayhew's excellent book which was the basis of Dodger (along with the works of Dickens). I first read it 15 years ago and still go back to it every now and then.
This is a not very good digital version but the best I can find
http://web.archive.org/web/20080923...b.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/MayLond.html
as for a sequel well there were hints at convention that this may not be a book but instead a TV or film version as to what happens to Dodger next
This is a not very good digital version but the best I can find
http://web.archive.org/web/20080923...b.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/MayLond.html
as for a sequel well there were hints at convention that this may not be a book but instead a TV or film version as to what happens to Dodger next
I am currently rereading this book and really enjoying it. Hopefully I will add more to this discussion once I have finished.
However, there is a mention of the Roman Goddess Cloacina in the book. I initially thought this was Terry's idea of a pun, but on Googling the name I found this article.
However, there is a mention of the Roman Goddess Cloacina in the book. I initially thought this was Terry's idea of a pun, but on Googling the name I found this article.
just finished Dodger last night and i really enjoyed it. i found that it was totally charming and i couldn't put it down. there were some repetitive parts but i could live with those fairly easily. although i may now have to read Nation again, didn't like it at the time but after reading the affection shown for it on here, i must give it another chance.
I wish I could say I enjoyed it: the Sweeney Todd bit was pure Pratchett spin, and the social dynamics of the Peelers, the Toshers, and so on was worth it, and you picked up some interesting tidbits here and there. But my God, it's way too talky. The pacing was just awful, and I had to force myself to read it several times. It also felt too abrupt at the beginning, though that might just be because any example of in media res would look abrupt compared to the rest of the novel. Granted, you get an idea for what's considered ordinary in this world later on, amid the extraordinary happenings, but the way it started, I thought Dickens was going to play a much more central role than he did.
Also, the characters are in general less interesting as a result. Dodger himself was fine, but so many people talked so often that it almost overshadows virtually anything else they did, which is a pity because what they're doing was often very interesting. Lastly, the villain "twist" was just underwhelming, both because the
was just not nearly unexpected enough nor really fleshed out in much detail, and because the "final showdown" was so anticlimactic that it rubs off on the reveal a bit.
It's not awful overall, but the brilliant novel this could have been (and make no mistake: Pratchett's style is in there somewhere, in the details and story points) is so badly buried under tons of fat and padding that it's either dead or very unhealthy.
Also, is Simplicity really Anastasia? It feels anachronistic, but I spent a good chunk of the novel wondering. Memory doesn't serve me well, but I think it mentioned or implied that she was an international refugee, that she was royalty, and I have the nagging sensation there were one or two other details that got me thinking.:
Also, the characters are in general less interesting as a result. Dodger himself was fine, but so many people talked so often that it almost overshadows virtually anything else they did, which is a pity because what they're doing was often very interesting. Lastly, the villain "twist" was just underwhelming, both because the
"woman all along" twist
It's not awful overall, but the brilliant novel this could have been (and make no mistake: Pratchett's style is in there somewhere, in the details and story points) is so badly buried under tons of fat and padding that it's either dead or very unhealthy.
Also, is Simplicity really Anastasia? It feels anachronistic, but I spent a good chunk of the novel wondering. Memory doesn't serve me well, but I think it mentioned or implied that she was an international refugee, that she was royalty, and I have the nagging sensation there were one or two other details that got me thinking.
:It's always a risk to try to write in the style of a bygone era.
No, it's almost a hundred years too early for that one. She's just another Little Graustarkian, but with more going for her. It's pretty clear that she's intended to become an international woman of mystery who helps the protagonist do whatever passing in society he needs to do in the course of their subsequent adventures. I read the original Little Graustark novel years ago and enjoyed it, so I'm hoping the sequel to Dodger gets written.
Aquamarine said:
Also, is Simplicity really Anastasia? It feels anachronistic, but I spent a good chunk of the novel wondering. Memory doesn't serve me well, but I think it mentioned or implied that she was an international refugee, that she was royalty, and I have the nagging sensation there were one or two other details that got me thinking. :
:
Yesterday in the local bookstore, I saw a book about Colonel Thomas Blood, and I had a thought... (uh-oh). Consider the following, a summary of Blood's most famous crime:
Colonel Blood is famous for being the man who, during the reign of Charles II (the so-called "Merrie Monarch"), hatched a plan to steal the Crown Jewels from the Tower of London.
Blood, a Parliamentarian during the English Civil War, was deprived of his estate in Ireland with the restoration of the English monarchy in 1660. In 1663, he put himself at the head of a plot to seize Dublin Castle from supporters of King Charles II, but the plot was discovered and his accomplices executed. He escaped capture. In 1671, he hatched a bizarre plan to steal the new Crown Jewels, which had been refashioned by Charles II because most of the original jewels were melted down after Charles I’s execution in 1649.
On May 9, 1671, Blood, disguised as a priest, managed to convince the Jewel House keeper to hand over his pistols. Blood’s three accomplices then emerged from the shadows, and together they forced their way into the Jewel House. However, they were caught in the act when the keeper’s son showed up unexpectedly, and an alarm went out to the Tower guard. One man shoved the Royal Orb down his breeches while Blood flattened the Crown with a mallet and tried to run off with it. The Tower guards apprehended and arrested all four of the perpetrators, and Blood was brought before the king. Charles was so impressed with Blood’s audacity that, far from punishing him, he restored his estates in Ireland and made him a member of his court with an annual pension.
Captain Blood became a colorful celebrity all across the kingdom, and when he died in 1680 his body had to be exhumed in order to persuade the public that he was actually dead.
So, is Pip Stick (aka Jack Dodger) perhaps based on Colonel Blood? After all, both of them...
- ...committed outrageous crimes
- ...stole jewellery
- ...dealt with royalty
- ...were brave and cheeky, and faced terrible dangers
- were ultimately rewarded for their bravery and cheekiness
So... maybe Dodger is Pterry's response to Colonel Blood! What do you think, eh?
Consider the following, a summary of Blood's most famous crime:Colonel Blood is famous for being the man who, during the reign of Charles II (the so-called "Merrie Monarch"), hatched a plan to steal the Crown Jewels from the Tower of London.
Blood, a Parliamentarian during the English Civil War, was deprived of his estate in Ireland with the restoration of the English monarchy in 1660. In 1663, he put himself at the head of a plot to seize Dublin Castle from supporters of King Charles II, but the plot was discovered and his accomplices executed. He escaped capture. In 1671, he hatched a bizarre plan to steal the new Crown Jewels, which had been refashioned by Charles II because most of the original jewels were melted down after Charles I’s execution in 1649.
On May 9, 1671, Blood, disguised as a priest, managed to convince the Jewel House keeper to hand over his pistols. Blood’s three accomplices then emerged from the shadows, and together they forced their way into the Jewel House. However, they were caught in the act when the keeper’s son showed up unexpectedly, and an alarm went out to the Tower guard. One man shoved the Royal Orb down his breeches while Blood flattened the Crown with a mallet and tried to run off with it. The Tower guards apprehended and arrested all four of the perpetrators, and Blood was brought before the king. Charles was so impressed with Blood’s audacity that, far from punishing him, he restored his estates in Ireland and made him a member of his court with an annual pension.
Captain Blood became a colorful celebrity all across the kingdom, and when he died in 1680 his body had to be exhumed in order to persuade the public that he was actually dead.
So, is Pip Stick (aka Jack Dodger) perhaps based on Colonel Blood? After all, both of them...
- ...committed outrageous crimes
- ...stole jewellery
- ...dealt with royalty
- ...were brave and cheeky, and faced terrible dangers
- were ultimately rewarded for their bravery and cheekiness
So... maybe Dodger is Pterry's response to Colonel Blood! What do you think, eh?