SPOILERS Feet of Clay Discussion **Spoilers**
- Thread starter Tonyblack
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pip said:
Thats Jingo of course. at the end of a few of the watch books vimes is bought off wwith various things such as more recruitment ect. In this case its the reopening of the old watch station. Vimes can be bribed but only in a certain way 
A bribe is an offering of something of personal value to influence someone to do something specific that benefits the briber.
Vetinari offers rewards like Dukedoms and statues of Old Stoneface and expansion of the Watch facilities as a means of showing the debt he owes to Vimes. Never once before these actions are taken does Vetinari dangle these rewards as bribes. He is giving his terrier nice tasty treats for performing smashing good tricks. Not offering his terrier treats to perform these tricks.
When Vimes says he is "bought and sold" he is not saying this within the context of being bribed, but that he is powerless to refuse the rewards he has been offered. Even if, deep down, he truly appreciates these rewards.
Ah J-I*b, there was me thinking the 5th Nellie was one of your fave books too. 
It seems to me that making Vimes a Duke benefitted Vetinari (the briber), because he could now send Vimes to Uberwald to sort out the dwarf problem.
Just like the end of Going Postal paves the way for Making Money, so too does the end of Jingo pave the way for 5th Nellie. 8)
It seems to me that making Vimes a Duke benefitted Vetinari (the briber), because he could now send Vimes to Uberwald to sort out the dwarf problem.
Just like the end of Going Postal paves the way for Making Money, so too does the end of Jingo pave the way for 5th Nellie. 8)
swreader said:
poohcarrot said:
The main reason being that he is stinking rich. He can't be bribed.
If he weren't rich, who knows?
If he weren't rich, who knows?
Vimes is stinking rich because he married Sybil.
I believe the old cliche "Behind every good man is a good woman" (you know what I mean!) is appropriate. He stopped drinking and started making a life for himself BECAUSE of Sybil.
If he hadn't married Sybil, he wouldn't be stinking rich, and could possibly still be a drunk in the gutter.
If he were a drunk in the gutter, then I think it highly possible for him to take a bribe or do things which were not "morally right".
Hence my "Who knows?" comment (which unfortunately got blasted for being cynical and obnoxious).
The problem with Carrot is an intriguing one--and one which begins to become clear in Feet of Clay. Pratchett made him a naive, dwarf- indoctrinated figure in his first appearance (G!G!) for a number of understandable reasons. First and probably foremost, he is a marvellously funny character. He arrests the head of the Thieves Guild for being a thief. He learns and tries to enforce all the statutes in the codified (and clearly out of date legally) Ankh--Morpork code of laws. But Terry also began the suggestion that he is somehow the heir to the throne (and therefore "divinely right) in this book. Unfortunately those two elements make it increasingly impossible to believe in Carrot as a person. It also makes it impossible for him to learn and develop, and this eventually makes him so boring that increasingly, Terry shunts him into a minor roles.
Carrot is terminally naive, and his moral code is essentially that of a dwarf. Since coming to AM, he has substituted Sam Vimes as his father figure, and tends to take Sam's orders as gospel--if he thinks about them at all. But, he follows orders from Vimes only when it suits him. (eg. - goes into the candle factory when he has been specifically told not to do so).
And for all his "interest" in other people and species, he never really understands them because, I think, he sees them through dwarf-colored blinders. He is horrified at Cheery's revelation that she is a female dwarf. He fails to understand that Angua is different -- a werewolf. In fact, he has no real understanding of other species or humans.
And thus, Terry lets us know in the last lines of the novel that Carrot is unable to change. After all they have been through together, he assumes that Angua (though he knows she is a werewolf) sees the world as he does. He expects her to understand that he has to write his letter home first (of course), and then he's come to ask her not if she will marry him, but if she'd like to help him fix up the Dwarf Bread Museum!
Carrot is terminally naive, and his moral code is essentially that of a dwarf. Since coming to AM, he has substituted Sam Vimes as his father figure, and tends to take Sam's orders as gospel--if he thinks about them at all. But, he follows orders from Vimes only when it suits him. (eg. - goes into the candle factory when he has been specifically told not to do so).
And for all his "interest" in other people and species, he never really understands them because, I think, he sees them through dwarf-colored blinders. He is horrified at Cheery's revelation that she is a female dwarf. He fails to understand that Angua is different -- a werewolf. In fact, he has no real understanding of other species or humans.
And thus, Terry lets us know in the last lines of the novel that Carrot is unable to change. After all they have been through together, he assumes that Angua (though he knows she is a werewolf) sees the world as he does. He expects her to understand that he has to write his letter home first (of course), and then he's come to ask her not if she will marry him, but if she'd like to help him fix up the Dwarf Bread Museum!
That really is one of the problems with Carrot. He's interested in people, but he assumes that everyone thinks as he does. He sees the good in people even when there isn't any. And he assumes that if he likes something then other people will as well.
This is only the third book that he plays a major role and already the character isn't working. Terry has made Carrot and Angua into a couple, but that couple is obviously having problems. Angua seems determined to leave him - and I think she has good reason to - but the book ends on (to me at least) an unsatisfactory note with Angua deciding to stay after all. She seems to have stopped being Carrot's girlfriend and instead become his pet dog.
While I can see that maybe Terry is making exactly that point, it just doesn't fit well with Angua's character.
This is only the third book that he plays a major role and already the character isn't working. Terry has made Carrot and Angua into a couple, but that couple is obviously having problems. Angua seems determined to leave him - and I think she has good reason to - but the book ends on (to me at least) an unsatisfactory note with Angua deciding to stay after all. She seems to have stopped being Carrot's girlfriend and instead become his pet dog.
While I can see that maybe Terry is making exactly that point, it just doesn't fit well with Angua's character.
More or less, yes. But in 5th Nellie Carrot does actually break out a little and the scene at the end of that where they're looking for Gavin is the far more gritty mirror to that notion and therefore a truer summation of their deepened relationship (as it's 2 books on ) in which it's apparent that Carrot's human side is a one woman man to match her ever-faithful hound. Having retrieved the situation with that, there's really not much more Terry can do with the Carrot-Angua relationship except to have them follow Sam and Sybil route which is fraught with pitfalls of course, not least because it won't fit too neatly into them both being active members of the Watch, although with Angua progressing through the ranks now perhaps they will get around it eventually
poohcarrot said:
Ah J-I*b, there was me thinking the 5th Nellie was one of your fave books too.
It seems to me that making Vimes a Duke benefitted Vetinari (the briber), because he could now send Vimes to Uberwald to sort out the dwarf problem.
It seems to me that making Vimes a Duke benefitted Vetinari (the briber), because he could now send Vimes to Uberwald to sort out the dwarf problem.
Anyway, you're wrong. Vimes was made a duke at the end of Jingo. not at the beginning of TFE. You can't assume that Vetinari knew anything about the dwarf situation during the Jingo timeframe or even promoted Vimes because he planned to use him as an ambassador at future events. (Jingo made it quite clear that Commander Vimes was quite able to bring about changes in international politics without the title.)
No one really knows how much time passed between the end of Jingo and the state of TFE.
And he wasn't 'bribed' with the dukedom; he was awarded it by Vetinari (along with the statue of Stoneface Vimes) for his (Vimes') unilateral work in stopping the Klatch/AM war long enough to let Vetinari resolve the impasse diplomatically. Vimes didn't want the promotion, and accepted it only because he knew it would make Sybil happy.
If you assert that Vimes' reward of a dukedom is a bribe, rather than a reward for a job well done, then you must agree with the assertion that every knighthood or other honor that has ever been bestowed upon someone for their life's work is also a bribe. Which means that Sir Terry Pratchett, Sir Paul McCartney, and Sir Humphrey
lol were all bribed by the Queen. Pray tell: what specific actions did they take after this bribe that were of personal benefit to Her Majesty? By your same illogic, every reward that has been bestowed upon any person in recognition of their work is also a bribe. Which means that thousands of soldiers who received medals or had streets or airports named after them in recognition of their heroic actions in wars were bribed, instead of honored.
But the Carrot of FOC is a little bit smarter and perceptive than the Carrot previous books. He's the only one smart enough to understand that golems have the potential to be more than they are, and his ingenious act of buying Dorfl and 'setting him free' (or least giving Dorfl self-ownership) is something only he would have thought of. He's clearly not as insightful on other issues, such as his relationships with females.
In Jingo, Carrot is even more of a minor character, basically a Lawrence of Arabia spoof. I think Pterry realized that Carrot was approaching a narrative dead-end, which is why he so radically changed the character in TFE. This Carrot is more self-centered, more manipulative, more aware of the fickleness of human nature and, for the first time, abandons his belief that "personal is not the same as important." All the evidence you need to Carrot's changed nature can be found in the last scene of the novel, when Carrot uses his undeclared kingship and his understanding of Nobby and Colon's fears to convince them to bring the striking coppers back into the fold--something Carrot should have done himself.
In Jingo, Carrot is even more of a minor character, basically a Lawrence of Arabia spoof. I think Pterry realized that Carrot was approaching a narrative dead-end, which is why he so radically changed the character in TFE. This Carrot is more self-centered, more manipulative, more aware of the fickleness of human nature and, for the first time, abandons his belief that "personal is not the same as important." All the evidence you need to Carrot's changed nature can be found in the last scene of the novel, when Carrot uses his undeclared kingship and his understanding of Nobby and Colon's fears to convince them to bring the striking coppers back into the fold--something Carrot should have done himself.
Jiballino, why are you arguing about this bribe "thang"
Tony said that Vimes would never take a bribe.
I pointed out a book where Vimes himself said he took a bribe.
Tony said he stood corrected.
Game over.
Jingo and 5th Nellie were written a mere 2 years apart.
Don't you think it's possible that TP had already thought of the 5th Nellie plot when he was writing Jingo?
It would have been impossible to send a mere Commander to the Low King's coronation. It would have insulted the dwarfs. In 5th Nellie, Lady M looks through Twerps peerage to see who Vetinari would send. Knights aren't in Twerps peerage (I don't think).
And the clincher. 8)
In Jingo, the fact that Vimes was a knight played an important part in the book. It allowed him to form an army and eventually stop the war.
Vimes was not made a knight at the start of Jingo, but in a previous Watch book.
Exactly the same with Vimes being made a Duke at the end of Jingo, so TP could use the Dukedom in a forthcoming book.
Tony said that Vimes would never take a bribe.
I pointed out a book where Vimes himself said he took a bribe.
Tony said he stood corrected.
Game over.
Jingo and 5th Nellie were written a mere 2 years apart.
Don't you think it's possible that TP had already thought of the 5th Nellie plot when he was writing Jingo?
It would have been impossible to send a mere Commander to the Low King's coronation. It would have insulted the dwarfs. In 5th Nellie, Lady M looks through Twerps peerage to see who Vetinari would send. Knights aren't in Twerps peerage (I don't think).
And the clincher. 8)
In Jingo, the fact that Vimes was a knight played an important part in the book. It allowed him to form an army and eventually stop the war.
Vimes was not made a knight at the start of Jingo, but in a previous Watch book.
Exactly the same with Vimes being made a Duke at the end of Jingo, so TP could use the Dukedom in a forthcoming book.
poohcarrot said:
Jiballino, why are you arguing about this bribe "thang"
Tony said that Vimes would never take a bribe.
I pointed out a book where Vimes himself said he took a bribe.
Tony said he stood corrected.
Game over.
Tony said that Vimes would never take a bribe.
I pointed out a book where Vimes himself said he took a bribe.
Tony said he stood corrected.
Game over.
Of course he might have. He might also have thought of having Vimes become a serial murder or try to replace Vetinari or join Granny Weatherwax in fighting vampires or arrest Rincewind for being Rincewind. As interesting as it would be to learn what PTerry was thinking about future books as he was writing them, and as fun as it might be conjecture when he began thinking about the evolution of the series, the only thing that actually matters and is relevant is what's in the books that have been published. Conjecture is fun, but irrelevant.
poohcarrot said:
It would have been impossible to send a mere Commander to the Low King's coronation. It would have insulted the dwarfs. In 5th Nellie, Lady M looks through Twerps peerage to see who Vetinari would send. Knights aren't in Twerps peerage (I don't think).
Also true. And also true that this does not support your assertion that Vimes was bribed and accepted a bribe. He became a Knight at the end of Men at Arms as a result of Carrot's extortion of Vetinari. He was ALREADY a knight at the beginning of FOC.
poohcarrot said:
Exactly the same with Vimes being made a Duke at the end of Jingo, so TP could use the Dukedom in a forthcoming book.
BUZZER! Sorry, you're conjecturing again. You're assuming that PTerry always planned to use Vimes as an ambassador simply because he ultimately BECAME an ambassador. You are arguing from hindsight.
And, again, none of your conjectures have anything to do with supporting your central (and incorrect) assumption that Vetinari bribed Vimes and Vimes accepted a bribe.
This is fun. I'm glad the 'old' Pooh is back.
This is a silly argument because it's impossible for me to win.
If I say something that is implied, you say it's conjecture. You want written proof.
However, when I give you written proof from Vimes' own mouth, you refuse to accept it.
I'm sure you won't accept Vimes taking the money from the assassin who tried to kill him as a bribe in return for letting him live, will you?
So, how about page 187 from the Snuff uncorrected proof where Vimes says;
"So Gobbo the Goblin, if you give me $100AM I'll let you go." 8)
If I say something that is implied, you say it's conjecture. You want written proof.
However, when I give you written proof from Vimes' own mouth, you refuse to accept it.
I'm sure you won't accept Vimes taking the money from the assassin who tried to kill him as a bribe in return for letting him live, will you?
So, how about page 187 from the Snuff uncorrected proof where Vimes says;
"So Gobbo the Goblin, if you give me $100AM I'll let you go." 8)
poohcarrot said:
This is a silly argument because it's impossible for me to win.
If I say something that is implied, you say it's conjecture. You want written proof.
If I say something that is implied, you say it's conjecture. You want written proof.
Okay, I'll concede this one because I forgot about it. Technically, it is a bribe, but Vimes doesn't use it for his own personal benefit--he donates it to the widows and orphans fund, doesn't he?
poohcarrot said:
Um....yep! (but I've read all the books )
)
Anyway - Vimes' journey is one through alcohol-fuelled fire and things could have been very different if GG never happened because Carrot lanced his conscience, then Sybil picked it up and gave it a good talking to and managed to give him back his pride in the process. The road between NW and GG was fraught with possibilities for corruption, degradation and disillusionment and that's that. Vimes has had nobility thrust upon him but in his blood he's still Everyman with prejudice on the right side of the law and that's what will always matter most to him and why Sybil's so proud of him - because he really does embody the Pride of Ankh Morpork
poohcarrot said:
And I didn't even need the spoiler about Gobbo from Snuff.
I was going to leave this point because I didn't see any point in going on about it, but as you, Pooh, have now mentioned, in a couple of your posts, that you seem to have won me over with your argument, I'd like to point out what I actually said in my post.
I stand corrected!
Although I must add that I was thinking of 'bribe' in negative and criminal terms. The situation you refer to is more of a reluctantly accepted reward, even if Vimes himself refers to it as a bribe.
Yes, you are right that Vimes said himself that has been bribed. I admitted as much in that post. However, I then went on to explain that I didn't see it as a bribe. I still don't think of it as a bribe.
Please don't quote from books that none of us have had a chance to read yet. I have made every effort to avoid reading or hearing actual references from Snuff. I deliberately did not watch any of the videos of the convention because I knew there was a reading from Snuff there. I do not want to read spoilers.
Apart from anything else, using such a quote to prove your point is unfair because the rest of us don't have access to the text or the context of the quote and therefore cannot judge the validity of your comments. It's also only a proof that you have and, as I found with the proof of UA that I have, the text in there is subject to change before publishing.
In other words - your quote is pointless in this discussion because it might not even make it into the finished book.
Tonyblack said:
poohcarrot said:
THE NO WAY COULD VIMES BE BRIBED QUIZ
In which book does Vimes say,
"You can't bribe me into accepting this time."
(incidently, implying he's been bribed before. )
Vimes is then bribed, accepts the bribe, then admits he's just been bribed.
"I'm bought and sold, aren't I?"
In which book does Vimes say,
"You can't bribe me into accepting this time."
(incidently, implying he's been bribed before.
)Vimes is then bribed, accepts the bribe, then admits he's just been bribed.
"I'm bought and sold, aren't I?"
Although I must add that I was thinking of 'bribe' in negative and criminal terms. The situation you refer to is more of a reluctantly accepted reward, even if Vimes himself refers to it as a bribe.
Please don't quote from books that none of us have had a chance to read yet. I have made every effort to avoid reading or hearing actual references from Snuff. I deliberately did not watch any of the videos of the convention because I knew there was a reading from Snuff there. I do not want to read spoilers.
Apart from anything else, using such a quote to prove your point is unfair because the rest of us don't have access to the text or the context of the quote and therefore cannot judge the validity of your comments. It's also only a proof that you have and, as I found with the proof of UA that I have, the text in there is subject to change before publishing.
In other words - your quote is pointless in this discussion because it might not even make it into the finished book.
