SPOILERS Guards! Guards! Discussion Group *Spoilers*

[=Tamar]

Re: Guards! Guards! Discussion Group

Interesting. Do a little people have negative comments about her girth or Pterry's description of it?

Nobby makes a comment about the dragon that "it's sodding enormous" and then blushes and changes it to "wide, egg-bearing hips" and "statuesque", obviously catching the implications possible with Sybil and thereby giving the reader the "little man" observation. Sybil is definitely large in all ways. But I don't see her as not being pretty, just that she is large, even as, much later, Agnes Nitt is large.

I kind of see Sybil in GG as being kind of that stereotypical large-bodied, breeder-hipped aristocratic women you often see in the novels of PG Wodehouse of other English drawing room authors. [...] The most important point about Sybil's physical appearance is that Sam Vimes is physically attracted to Sybil in spite of it or perhaps because of it. Certainly enough to father a son and have a romantic scene with her in Snuff.

I can easily believe that Vimes would be attracted to Sybil at least partly because of her size. Sir Terry makes the point with Agnes that Ramtops women were often courted for their strength, not their slenderness. This can be demonstrated historically on Earth. My father was born in 1903. He used to try to get us to eat by saying "Don't you want to grow up to be big and fat like me?" He was not fat at all, by the way. A friend of my sister's once visited the house; she was large like Sybil and Agnes. Later, my father referred to her quite sincerely as "that beautiful, beautiful blonde."

 

[DreadfulKata]

Re: Guards! Guards! Discussion Group

Interesting. Do a little people have negative comments about her girth or Pterry's description of it?

Nobby makes a comment about the dragon that "it's sodding enormous" and then blushes and changes it to "wide, egg-bearing hips" and "statuesque", obviously catching the implications possible with Sybil and thereby giving the reader the "little man" observation. Sybil is definitely large in all ways. But I don't see her as not being pretty, just that she is large, even as, much later, Agnes Nitt is large.

No, I haven't heard people explicitly having a problem with Sybil being fat. It's more something that seems to arise when casting suggestions are made. Names come up of actresses who are about as fat as Betty Page. Or people draw fanart where she's barely heavier than, say Angua.

 

[Dotsie]

Re: Guards! Guards! Discussion Group

I felt that it was Terry who had a problem with her size - he seemed to change from descriptions of her being fat, to more like "strapping".

 

[Dotsie]

Re: Guards! Guards! Discussion Group

People who work with animals - vets and so on - care so much about animals they dedicate their lives to helping them. but they'll still put a dog to sleep without a flicker of sentimentality (and not just sick dogs - some shelters euthanise dogs they can't rehome etc). So to me there was nothing jarring about the implication that Sybil might put Errol to sleep.

I completely disagree that people who work with animals can put a dog to sleep "without a flicker of sentimentality". Of course they care, and it will definitely bother them, they just have to put this aside to be able to do their job. And a vet euthanising an animal is completely different to a breeder doing it, just because the animal can't be bred from. It's jarring to me because she runs supports the sunshine sanctuary for sick dragons (also in G!G!), keeps a dragon in the house that's old and smelly and has no teeth, and presumably isn't bred from (again, also in G!G!), and later 'rescues' a dragon that was being used to light a forge (forget his name - he was in MAA). This isn't a woman who would say a dragon was for the choppy chop just because she couldn't mate from him, so the inconsistencies are an error on the part of Terry, or just show Sybil to be more sentimental than she wants people to know.

 

[DreadfulKata]

Re: Guards! Guards! Discussion Group

People who work with animals - vets and so on - care so much about animals they dedicate their lives to helping them. but they'll still put a dog to sleep without a flicker of sentimentality (and not just sick dogs - some shelters euthanise dogs they can't rehome etc). So to me there was nothing jarring about the implication that Sybil might put Errol to sleep.

I completely disagree that people who work with animals can put a dog to sleep "without a flicker of sentimentality". Of course they care, and it will definitely bother them, they just have to put this aside to be able to do their job.

I'd draw a distinction between sentimentality and caring. I'm sure no vet is unmoved when they're putting an animal to sleep, but they would never let sentimentality get in the way of doing the job.

But you're right, there's a difference between that situation and a breeder/keeper who is apparently talking about killing healthy animals. I can see that people take issue with this coming from a character who is later (and at other points in this novel too) extremely kind and big-hearted.

I think I also associated Sybil with the horse-and-hound set, the sort of (often posh) person capable of complete soppiness about animals in one sense, but utterly ruthless in others. The people who (used to) hunt foxes had justifications for why it was in the countryside's best interest to hunt foxes, and why it was just sentimentality to protest. I could imagine the Sybil of G!G! being similarly pragmatic about dragons.

I don't think the Sybil of T5E or T! would act in quite the same way, but the Sybil of G!G! is a rather more strident version of the character.

You're probably right, that this is a bit of Early Instalment weirdness for Sybil and is best ignored. All I'm really saying is that I'm able to read G!G! without that leaping out at me as particularly jarring for her character...


... Unlike some other bits. As we know, some of Terry's characters on first appeareance are a bit... different to how we know them later: Lord V, Granny etc.

G!G! isn't much of a case of this, I don't think; all the characters are fairly recognisable. But it;s funny to reread it and notice some anomalies, particularly with Vimes. Remember when Vimes had no very strong feelings about monarchy, and it was actually Colon who was enraged by the very concept? And that one time Vimes left a fellow officer to fend for himself in a barfight?

Ah, the relentless march of Character Development.

 

[raptornx01]

Re: Guards! Guards! Discussion Group

Don't forget that the time Sybil was making those comments she was doing so infront of someone she didn't know. And the issue of aristocrats and image comes up quite alot, especially later. This could be part of that.

As for the physical, Honestly, I never pictured her as being particularly fat. not like Agnes, but more of an amazon type. Big in general, not just around the waist.

 

[Dotsie]

Re: Guards! Guards! Discussion Group

Nobby called her a "big fat party", which seemed a bit harsh.

 

[Discworldpadawan]

Re: Guards! Guards! Discussion Group

Hi All,
just finished Guards, Guards yesterday! Monstrous regiment was my last one, and the Tiffany Aching series before that, so the city watch lot are my next undertaking! Unfortunately I've already read snuff, so it wont be totally in order tho! Snuff was the first discworld novel I ever read. Anyway, it was a joy to see how the watch started out with only 3 members plus Carrot Also the mental image of Sybil I get in this book is alot different from the one I got whilst reading Snuff? as well as this, I'd not heared of Lupine wonse before, so I'd assumed he was Drumknott's real name, not knowing where drumknott comes from as Vetinari's assistant either (no spilers please! )
Vetinari is also different here than in other discworld books I've read, seems to be just finding his feet as tyrant

The only thing that confused me was why Wonse lifted up the floorboard in Vetinari's bedroom to retrieve (after the secret society robe) the summoning of the dragons book, just before being caught in the act by vimes? This implied to me that Vetinari was the Supreme grand master, who summoned the dragon with the book??

 

[=Tamar]

Re: Guards! Guards! Discussion Group

The only thing that confused me was why Wonse lifted up the floorboard in Vetinari's bedroom to retrieve (after the secret society robe) the summoning of the dragons book, just before being caught in the act by vimes? This implied to me that Vetinari was the Supreme grand master, who summoned the dragon with the book??

What room in the palace would be less likely to be searched than Vetinari's bedroom? Wonse would have free access, more than the other servants, so it was both safe and accessible. Hiding the materials there also gave Wonse a last-chance way to push the blame onto Vetinari, which he tried to do when Vimes caught him. But Vimes knew better because he remembered Wonse's peculiar style of running.

One thing I wonder about is whether Vetinari had found the cache and hadn't done anything about it, or possibly hadn't had time to do anything about it before the dragon took over. As was said before, this is still an early version of Vetinari, when he could still be fooled by his secretary.

 

[RolandItwasntmyfault]

Re: Guards! Guards! Discussion Group

The only thing that confused me was why Wonse lifted up the floorboard in Vetinari's bedroom to retrieve (after the secret society robe) the summoning of the dragons book, just before being caught in the act by vimes? This implied to me that Vetinari was the Supreme grand master, who summoned the dragon with the book??

What room in the palace would be less likely to be searched than Vetinari's bedroom? Wonse would have free access, more than the other servants, so it was both safe and accessible. Hiding the materials there also gave Wonse a last-chance way to push the blame onto Vetinari, which he tried to do when Vimes caught him. But Vimes knew better because he remembered Wonse's peculiar style of running.

The answer is rather simple: It is Wonse's own bedroom by now.

I didn't want to answer this question earlier because although I always though that now the Patrician is in the dungeon Wonse lives in the Patrician's room I wasn't sure about it that I could put the finger on it. But I am rereading the book at the moment and so I was watching out for this point. It was easier as I though; only one page after Vimes catches Wonse looking for the book: "I noticed you sleep in here now", said Vimes. "I suppose the king likes to have you handy, does he?"

I don't know where he has hide the book while the Patrician still has been around but now he hides the book simply in the room he himself lives. Okay, perhaps a little bit silly in case it could be found but ... yes, as he does, he always could blame it on Vetinari. This may be the reason why he also keeps the robe he actually doesn't need anymore under the floorboards.

Or do you ask why he is lifting the floorboard at the very moment Vimes stands there?
I don't know. But perhaps he wants to look something up, perhaps a method to send the dragon away (wouldn't be surprised ). And Vimes only had to wait until Wonse would go to bed to throw the book on the floor and show that he knows about the floorboard. Very lucky for him that Wonse himself looks under the floor while he is waiting for him and already has discovered the hiding-place.

One thing I wonder about is whether Vetinari had found the cache and hadn't done anything about it, or possibly hadn't had time to do anything about it before the dragon took over. As was said before, this is still an early version of Vetinari, when he could still be fooled by his secretary.

I don't know. I didn't get the impression that Vetinari knew very much. There even is a text passage in which I got the impression that he is rather excited/nervous (in relation to the Vetinari we know from later books), he has "an unpleasent premonition about this dragon business". But, later, he also thinks about negotiating with the dragon ("if it can talk it can negotiate if it can negotiate then I have it by the short").
To do anything about it would only refer to the arriving king, I think. Vetinari knows the citizens of Ankh-Morpork and he knows his own power base. What the city doesn't need would be a riot because the citizens suddenly are supporting the glamorous king who kills the dragon and throws the usurper from his throne. So he goes in his own dungeon out of free will and let the people have the king they deserve. Until it will get sorted out.
As you said, and as has been said before, he is an very early Vetinari as we know hin. I think he already is recognizable, but he is something like a rough diamond which still has to be formed by Terry. Okay, the Patrician has been mentioned in earlier books, by name the first time in Sourcery, but this is the first book Vetinary actually get a character.


At last remark about the book.
At the moment I am reading several books/series again, as something like a "best of". Now I have started the watch series (for the first time on its own). It may be that I have read the other books/series too often again and again and although I am more liking the Death/Susan and the Whitches novels ... but while reading this book at the moment I have extraordinary big fun and get a laugh every few pages and thoughs out of the text which let my tongue click because they are so witty and so accurate.
Yes, I like this book, I should have read it more often again and again than I actually did (but then I perhaps also could have overdone it? :think: ).

 

[=Tamar]

Re: Guards! Guards! Discussion Group

What room in the palace would be less likely to be searched than Vetinari's bedroom? ...Hiding the materials there also gave Wonse a last-chance way to push the blame onto Vetinari, which he tried to do when Vimes caught him.

The answer is rather simple: It is Wonse's own bedroom by now.
.... "I noticed you sleep in here now", said Vimes. "I suppose the king likes to have you handy, does he?"

I don't know where he has hid the book while the Patrician still has been around but now he hides the book simply in the room he himself lives. Okay, perhaps a little bit silly in case it could be found but ... yes, as he does, he always could blame it on Vetinari. This may be the reason why he also keeps the robe he actually doesn't need anymore under the floorboards.

I had forgotten that Wonse was sleeping there now. Still, it works either way. It would have been unlikely to be found by anyone except Vetinari himself. Wonse would have had access and probably knew about the hiding place before the dragon arrived. I don't think even an early Vetinari would have put anything important there, so it was probably empty, but I'm sure Vetinari knew the place was there.

Or do you ask why he is lifting the floorboard at the very moment Vimes stands there?
I don't know. But perhaps he wants to look something up, perhaps a method to send the dragon away (wouldn't be surprised ). And Vimes only had to wait until Wonse would go to bed to throw the book on the floor and show that he knows about the floorboard. Very lucky for him that Wonse himself looks under the floor while he is waiting for him and already has discovered the hiding-place.

(It was Discworldpadawan who originally asked.) Wasn't the dragon gone already? Wonse was looking for something to use against Vimes. He wanted to call a different dragon; he still thought he could control one. Wonse's name is a pun on "wants"; an older meaning of "wants" is "lacks" and Wonse lacks many important qualities, such as common sense.

One thing I wonder about is whether Vetinari had found the cache and hadn't done anything about it, or possibly hadn't had time to do anything about it before the dragon took over. As was said before, this is still an early version of Vetinari, when he could still be fooled by his secretary.

I don't know. I didn't get the impression that Vetinari knew very much. There even is a text passage in which I got the impression that he is rather excited/nervous (in relation to the Vetinari we know from later books), he has "an unpleasant premonition about this dragon business". But, later, he also thinks about negotiating with the dragon ("if it can talk it can negotiate, if it can negotiate then I have it by the short").

Vetinari seems confident that he could eventually negotiate his way back into power. He is already developing into the present Vetinari. It's unusual for Vetinari to let something that dangerous keep going until it can be eliminated, so I think he probably hadn't found the hidden book and robe, though he did know there was a real dragon and he was trying to force Vimes to find it. The later Vetinari wouldn't have made the mistake of overdoing the pressure on Vimes. Luckily, Vimes's pet dragon Errol took care of the dragon problem, so only the Wonse problem had to be solved.

I think he already is recognizable, but he is something like a rough diamond which still has to be formed by Terry. Okay, the Patrician has been mentioned in earlier books, by name the first time in Sourcery, but this is the first book Vetinari actually get a character.

In Sourcery Vetinari tried to exert his authority when the wizards kidnapped him, but that memory was removed. He didn't otherwise do much except experiment with how long it would take to wear away the glass of a jar.

I like this book, I should have read it more often again and again than I actually did (but then I perhaps also could have overdone it? :think: ).

It is possible to overdo rereading Pratchett. I have found that it is important to take breaks and read other books.

 

[RolandItwasntmyfault]

Re: Guards! Guards! Discussion Group

What room in the palace would be less likely to be searched than Vetinari's bedroom? ...Hiding the materials there also gave Wonse a last-chance way to push the blame onto Vetinari, which he tried to do when Vimes caught him.

The answer is rather simple: It is Wonse's own bedroom by now.
.... "I noticed you sleep in here now", said Vimes. "I suppose the king likes to have you handy, does he?"

I don't know where he has hid the book while the Patrician still has been around but now he hides the book simply in the room he himself lives. Okay, perhaps a little bit silly in case it could be found but ... yes, as he does, he always could blame it on Vetinari. This may be the reason why he also keeps the robe he actually doesn't need anymore under the floorboards.

I had forgotten that Wonse was sleeping there now. Still, it works either way. It would have been unlikely to be found by anyone except Vetinari himself. Wonse would have had access and probably knew about the hiding place before the dragon arrived. I don't think even an early Vetinari would have put anything important there, so it was probably empty, but I'm sure Vetinari knew the place was there.

Yes, it works either way. Hm, yes, a Vetinari wouldn't put anything important there, a Wonse would, and I also wouldn't be surprised of Vetinari knew the place (alhough he would let it empty).

Or do you ask why he is lifting the floorboard at the very moment Vimes stands there?
I don't know. But perhaps he wants to look something up, perhaps a method to send the dragon away (wouldn't be surprised ). And Vimes only had to wait until Wonse would go to bed to throw the book on the floor and show that he knows about the floorboard. Very lucky for him that Wonse himself looks under the floor while he is waiting for him and already has discovered the hiding-place.

(It was Discworldpadawan who originally asked.) Wasn't the dragon gone already? Wonse was looking for something to use against Vimes. He wanted to call a different dragon; he still thought he could control one. Wonse's name is a pun on "wants"; an older meaning of "wants" is "lacks" and Wonse lacks many important qualities, such as common sense.

(Yes, the question was to Discworldpadawan because after reading his question again I wasn't sure if he meant the place or the looking for the book.) No, the dragon was still around. It was shortly after the meeting for lunch with the talk about the dragon's diet. This even may be the reason why he at exactly this moment looks for the books (before he already tried to convince the dragon not to eat maidens).
Yes, this pun is a very good one. It fits. He wants to take Vimes on his side ("to make it less bad as it already is") or call a second dragon so that both would fight each other. Either of both rather questionable ways to deal with the situation. Albeit the first one out of good intentions (although I think that Wonse only says this to Vimes to wriggle himself out) ... but ... I doubt if it ever had worked ...

One thing I wonder about is whether Vetinari had found the cache and hadn't done anything about it, or possibly hadn't had time to do anything about it before the dragon took over. As was said before, this is still an early version of Vetinari, when he could still be fooled by his secretary.

I don't know. I didn't get the impression that Vetinari knew very much. There even is a text passage in which I got the impression that he is rather excited/nervous (in relation to the Vetinari we know from later books), he has "an unpleasant premonition about this dragon business". But, later, he also thinks about negotiating with the dragon ("if it can talk it can negotiate, if it can negotiate then I have it by the short").

Vetinari seems confident that he could eventually negotiate his way back into power. He is already developing into the present Vetinari. It's unusual for Vetinari to let something that dangerous keep going until it can be eliminated, so I think he probably hadn't found the hidden book and robe, though he did know there was a real dragon and he was trying to force Vimes to find it. The later Vetinari wouldn't have made the mistake of overdoing the pressure on Vimes. Luckily, Vimes's pet dragon Errol took care of the dragon problem, so only the Wonse problem had to be solved.

I agree. As I read it the first time I didn't noticed but it also is very clear that Vetinary not any second believes himself in the "wading bird". He wants to set Vimes (or the watch in general) at the case but he doesn't want let somebody run around shouting "there is a dragon, a dragon in the city, everbody will die!" or similar things.
But I have to confess I am not sure where Vetinari overdid a pressure on Vimes?
Did you mean via Wonse? Wonse was the one Vimes was responsible and who he has to report to.

I think he already is recognizable, but he is something like a rough diamond which still has to be formed by Terry. Okay, the Patrician has been mentioned in earlier books, by name the first time in Sourcery, but this is the first book Vetinari actually get a character.

In Sourcery Vetinari tried to exert his authority when the wizards kidnapped him, but that memory was removed. He didn't otherwise do much except experiment with how long it would take to wear away the glass of a jar.

Good quote!
Yes, I agree, we don't see very much of him and he doesn't very much, therefore, the first time we see a real characterization is in Guards! Guards!.

I like this book, I should have read it more often again and again than I actually did (but then I perhaps also could have overdone it? :think: ).

It is possible to overdo rereading Pratchett. I have found that it is important to take breaks and read other books.

Yes, this might be a wise move from time to time.
Luckily now I am reading the books I haven't read very often until now. Afterwards ... there still is enough other stuff on my shelf.



Another point I have noticed and just remember:
The first time the dragon appears it must have been rather small if not even a very different (smaller) dragon. This corresponds with the very little and not very mighty magical items the Brethren at the first summoning has collected but first of all it has been the footprint Vimes brings an impringt to Sybil. Unless he brought it along on an oxcart the talons of the actual dragon would have been much to big. But he brings it along in a parcel. So the "wading bird" sounds not as silly as I though by my first reading of the book, too.
Nevertheless, although Vimes and Sybil already have seen the big dragon (and its talons) they went back to this particular wall to try to let Errol get track of the dragon to find it. Did they knew that he must have grown? I am pretty sure they assume that there always has been only one dragon, too.

 

[=Tamar]

Re: Guards! Guards! Discussion Group

The later Vetinari wouldn't have made the mistake of overdoing the pressure on Vimes.

I agree. As I read it the first time I didn't noticed but it also is very clear that Vetinary not any second believes himself in the "wading bird". He wants to set Vimes (or the watch in general) at the case but he doesn't want let somebody run around shouting "there is a dragon, a dragon in the city, everbody will die!" or similar things.
But I have to confess I am not sure where Vetinari overdid a pressure on Vimes?
Did you mean via Wonse? Wonse was the one Vimes was responsible and who he has to report to.

Drat, I was doubly wrong. I was thinking of the scene in Men At Arms, which is not in GG and is also a slightly later Vetinari.

Another point I have noticed and just remember:
The first time the dragon appears it must have been rather small if not even a very different (smaller) dragon. This corresponds with the very little and not very mighty magical items the Brethren at the first summoning has collected but first of all it has been the footprint Vimes brings an imprint to Sybil. Unless he brought it along on an oxcart the talons of the actual dragon would have been much too big. But he brings it along in a parcel. So the "wading bird" sounds not as silly as I though by my first reading of the book, too.
Nevertheless, although Vimes and Sybil already have seen the big dragon (and its talons) they went back to this particular wall to try to let Errol get track of the dragon to find it. Did they knew that he must have grown? I am pretty sure they assume that there always has been only one dragon, too.

I never noticed that! I just assumed that the foot was comparatively thin so even though the plaster cast was large, it wasn't very heavy. But I like your idea that the dragon grew bigger as the Brethren brought along more magical items. Of course once it could pull magic from the University it could grow.
I think there was only one dragon involved because it remembered being controlled and who had done it.

 

[RolandItwasntmyfault]

Re: Guards! Guards! Discussion Group

Another point I have noticed and just remember:
The first time the dragon appears it must have been rather small if not even a very different (smaller) dragon. This corresponds with the very little and not very mighty magical items the Brethren at the first summoning has collected but first of all it has been the footprint Vimes brings an imprint to Sybil. Unless he brought it along on an oxcart the talons of the actual dragon would have been much too big. But he brings it along in a parcel. So the "wading bird" sounds not as silly as I though by my first reading of the book, too.
Nevertheless, although Vimes and Sybil already have seen the big dragon (and its talons) they went back to this particular wall to try to let Errol get track of the dragon to find it. Did they knew that he must have grown? I am pretty sure they assume that there always has been only one dragon, too.

I never noticed that! I just assumed that the foot was comparatively thin so even though the plaster cast was large, it wasn't very heavy. But I like your idea that the dragon grew bigger as the Brethren brought along more magical items. Of course once it could pull magic from the University it could grow.
I think there was only one dragon involved because it remembered being controlled and who had done it.

Yes, I haven't noticed until I reread the book this time, too. I too assumed the foot had to fit, but this time I noticed after I get aware of how big the talons has been described.
The dragons has gone to another dimension, where discworld-scales don't apply, he even get created its own reality when it appears in/over Ankh-Morpork, depending only on the amount of magic which is aviable. So the same dragon can be very small or he can be very big, or everything between, its size (and time duration in this dimension) limited only by the magic it gets by the summoning and then from the University.
I also doubt that the first dragon has been another dragon. The connection between Wonse and the dragon is deep enough to let find the dragon the way itself to Ankh-Morpork. Everything implies that there ever has been only one dragon and as explained above, size doesn't matter.
Perhaps Vimes and Sibyl also has drawn conclusions about the growing of the dragon and therefore went with Errol to this particular wall. If I remember right then Vimes actually has been the first who said that the dragon consumes magic and got created his own reality.

 

[Discworldpadawan]

Re: Guards! Guards! Discussion Group

The only thing that confused me was why Wonse lifted up the floorboard in Vetinari's bedroom to retrieve (after the secret society robe) the summoning of the dragons book, just before being caught in the act by vimes? This implied to me that Vetinari was the Supreme grand master, who summoned the dragon with the book

What room in the palace would be less likely to be searched than Vetinari's bedroom? Wonse would have free access, more than the other servants, so it was both safe and accessible. Hiding the materials there also gave Wonse a last-chance way to push the blame onto Vetinari, which he tried to do when Vimes caught him. But Vimes knew better because he remembered Wonse's peculiar style of running.

The answer is rather simple: It is Wonse's own bedroom by now. ??

Ah very well spotted Rolanditwasntmyfault! I'd missed that point in the book! Makes sense now

 

[shegallivants]

I just reread this today...and ooh- how they've grown since this book! It's so delicious, I felt almost triumphant when I was reading, grinning happily to myself, thinking "You're going to go up (kicking and screaming a little) in the world, Sam Vimes. Lady Sybil, you're going to have a little Sam and conquer the fat market and the hearts of dwarfish opera fans for AM! The self-financed traffic department's coming, Colon/Nobbs!, etc. " Was it just me being a little manic? Does anyone else get this same rush of glee (like with Vimes's ducal ascension over all those noble tools)? It just reminded me again of how much I love this series, and how well-crafted these characters are, to inspire such loyalty.

 

[=Tamar]

Maybe not the same reason for glee, but I do enjoy seeing the seeds of later books and themes where they first appear.

 

[NineTenthsMadness]

Having read "Men at Arms" first some ten, fifteen years before having a go at Men At Arms, it took some getting used to the first time I went through it, and though I have reread it many times by now, I still think it kind of stands out in an odd sort of way, at least regarding the other Sam Vimes books. Somehow, Sam doesn't seem to do much in this one, and is more of a plaything to the overall plot. The Dragon is a really strong villainous monster here, while other watch books are more about humans being at the center of the crime, although there is a strong human villainous character here as well. Also, to be honest, in an age where we know that Dolphins rape and monkeys and apes both rape and go to war with one another, and penguins, of all things, also engage in such things, I don't quite agree with the "humans are the real monsters" message any more.

However, like in many cases, I don't waste much time thinking about things I don't like, which just goes to show how much I do like this book. It may not be my favourite, but it is the start of Sam Vimes' and Sybil's journey, and what a journey it has been...

 

[=Tamar]

Somehow, Sam doesn't seem to do much in this one, and is more of a plaything to the overall plot. The Dragon is a really strong villainous monster here, while other watch books are more about humans being at the center of the crime, although there is a strong human villainous character here as well.

The Vimes books are not just police procedurals; they are partly in the genre of noir detective stories in which human society is dark and crime-filled, there are no perfect heroes, and success is never complete. G!G! is closest to the pattern with the drunken policeman in a dispirited Watch who still tries, in fits and starts, to serve the City. Vimes does make a difference. He rescues Sybil and saves her innocent swamp dragons from being destroyed by a mob. He also stops the villain from calling up yet another dragon to fight the first.

According to the theory in How To Summon Dragons, the qualities of the dragon are based on the qualities of the human who summons it. The author of that book is said to have been a fairly decent human, though lacking in self-knowledge and forethought, yet his dragon killed him. The dragon the villain summoned had the darkest qualities of the villain. The conclusion is that all ordinary humans contain within them the elements of a rather nasty dragon, a very noir message. (Twoflower's dragon in TLF was positively sweet by comparison, which fits with what we know about Twoflower.)

On the other hand, if we take the position that the author of HTSD was wrong in that theory as well, the dragon becomes generic, which indicates that all female noble dragons are probably like that (again, except Twoflower's, though it wasn't around long enough for us to see it respond under differing circumstances). Lady Sybil said it behaved like a typical female dragon, more possessive and aggressive than the males.

In either interpretation, I feel that the unexpectedly semi-romantic ending is wholly appropriate, demonstrating the better aspects of humanity and adding a note of hope to counter the noir darkness of early-series Ankh-Morpork.

 

[Herry]

I've been having trouble finding the traditional Corgi edition of this book. Most bookstores have now switched to the newer editions of the Discworld novels and I'm increasingly frustrated by the difficulty with finding good copies of the Corgi editions online. To date I've got two versions of the new edition and one of the old but in poor condition.

Can you recommend anywhere to purchase the Corgi editions in mint condition, including of Guards! Guards!?