SPOILERS Guards! Guards! Discussion Group *Spoilers*

[Jan Van Quirm]

......... Having been on the receiving end of rejection so long, she [Sybil] tends to look deeper and find the value and quality of the beings she's inclined to love - with Errol she hasn't given up on him just because he's a poor runt of a pedigree and so she doesn't really want to do what most [of the] fanatical of breeders would do and get him neutered or even put down. She gives him to Sam because she feels sorry for them both and perhaps she thinks they will bond - and it's her opening 'negotiations' with Sam as well of course, but also she's testing him a little as well, seeing if there's more to him and not completely trusting her instincts?

...... But Sybil's looking for something real on both sides - certainly not romance as such, because she knows she's not cut out for that. Also she's a sensibly compassionate person so she sees clearly and assesses what's important on both sides before deciding that Sam is worth the risk of falling in love with. Then she goes for it with the pink bunny dressing gown!

also

As for raising the swamp dragons, I still think that he makes them too disagreeable. It's one thing to be soppy over a stray dog, or cuddle a smelly hampster, it's quite another to breed animals that are a cross between an alligator, a chemical waste dump, and a fireworks factory.

May I refer you three honourable gentlemen to my previous comments (in the broadest sense)

May I also remind you that this is fiction, Ankh Morpork and Pterry's written this... so lets turn this blind dragon fancy/breeding/mania thing on it's head - if we had swamp dragons, exactly as Pterry writes them in the Roundworld I guarantee you some people would go nuts over the smelly little boilers and do exactly what Sybil and her friends do - and yes most of those people would most likely be lonely but capable big-hearted women. Women can love anything - look at the fanmail serial killers get? What woman in her right mind would marry Mike Tyson despite the money? What made Diane Fossey like living a humid hellhole jungle in a war zone and commune with gorillas? It's not at all unusual, just set on the Disc, and Sybil's a charismatic stereotype - like Carrot

And remember Sybil doesn't keep her dragons in the house - she takes them in there, yes of course, but they're kept outside and I repeat - she doesn't care about the horrid smell and the mess because that's part and parcel of her obsession in the same way that she has no interest in dressing for other people just to be socially acceptable let alone attract a man - she's completely given up on that until she meets her own romantically lame duck soulmate in Sam.

Also don't forget that Errol's exceptional in that he's totally contrary to the species as a whole so perhaps you can house-train them...

As for all the misadventures, neglect and literal-minded order-taking - that's just genius and an highly accurate rendition of how things very often happen on any world where million to one chances invariably work - a completely random chain of events that result in a happy and fortunate outcome where Sam gets Sybil, Errol gets the Queen and Ankh-Morpork gets saved. That's just a great Pterry plot coming together absolutely right

 

[Tonyblack]

Yes, Terry cunningly makes the reader think that a) the big aggressive dragon is a male and b) that Errol, another male, wants to fight it.

Genius!

They pinched the idea in Shrek.

 

[poohbcarrot]

But she does say (on page 138) that she supposes she will have to get rid of him. I don't quite know what that means and can only guess.

She never actually says she's going to get rid of Errol until Vimes mistakenly asks her about it. She saw that Vimes likes Errol and knows he'd go to a good home, so she offers Errol to Vimes (plus the love trinket bit)

 

[Dotsie]

...but she couldn't kill a dragon even if she wanted to because,

"I suppose I shall have to (get rid of Errol).
You know how it is, though. They look up at you with those big, soulful eyes -"

She isn't just a breeder. Killing a dragon would be no problem to a breeder. She actually loves dragons (including the whittles) and I don't believe she would ever hurt one.

True, but she does say (about another swamp dragon):

"Oh, don't be squeamish, man. You just have to help him up into the air. It's me who has the tricky part. I know it's cruel, but if he can't manage it tonight then he's for the choppy-chop. Survival of the fittest and all that, don't you know."
Captain Vimes managed to get a grip on himself. He was clearly in the presence of some sex-crazed would-be murderess

ETA I do think this is very out of character though. I don't know why Terry left it in

 

[Trish]

I honestly couldn't see why the Watch got the credit.

Because as Vetinari said "After every triumphant victory there must be heroes. It is essential.
Then everyone will know that everything has been done properly" (page 303 - pb)

Yes. Also the Watch "saved" the City by doing what it was supposed to be doing (but hadn't, for various reasons outlined in other DW books) by upholding the law.

Upholding means going through the proper channels --the arrest and charging of the dragon; Vimes's confrontation with Wonse --he wanted to kill him and Wonse deserved it (he made the bullets and had the rest of the Brethren fire them, after all), but Vimes realized he'd be no better and killing Wonse represent what he despised. So he followed the rules of society and law.

The phrase "throw the book at him" is a synechdoche. We all know what it means, but that isn't what it says. The question is did Carrot? Yes, he's young and impressionable, naive ("but they had no apples" is priceless) and does what he's told, eg: "Charge the men."

Another synechdoche perhaps taken at face value, but effective. Afterward, he asked Vimes If he'd done right and Vimes acquiesed, even though he said it "wasn't what I had in mind."

Effective. Remember that Carrot is a dwarf and wants results.
Literal. Carrot is a human raised by dwarves; he has the intuition of a human being coupled with the dwarf-instilled drive to see whatever it is (a new shaft, a trip to the city) completed promptly and fully, then finished.


What I really wonder is has Sir Terry peeked at this thread?
If he has, does he marvel at the deep understanding of his readers and their ability to ferret out his Faulknerian foreshadowing or is he laughing his arse off.

 

[swreader]

After Tony asked me who Gomer Pyle was, it occurred to me that probably a great many of you will not be familiar with this TV character (from the 60s) either because you're too young, or you live in countries where the series was never shown. Tony said he thought the analogy was very good when I gave him a couple of links.
This is a link to Gomer Pyle, U.S. M.C. in Wiki, and if you scroll down to the character description, you'll get a feel for the comparison I was making. And if you just want a chuckle at the show this link takes you to a You Tube snipped - Gomer in Bayonet Training.

This is not a major post, but you may enjoy the film even if you don't agree with the analogy.

 

[poohbcarrot]

"Oh, don't be squeamish, man. You just have to help him up into the air. It's me who has the tricky part. I know it's cruel, but if he can't manage it tonight then he's for the choppy-chop. Survival of the fittest and all that, don't you know."
Captain Vimes managed to get a grip on himself. He was clearly in the presence of some sex-crazed would-be murderess

ETA I do think this is very out of character though. I don't know why Terry left it in

Most pet owners talk to their pets, believing they can understand. Maybe Cybil was indirectly threatening the dragon, forcing him to mate.

 

[kakaze]

I honestly couldn't see why the Watch got the credit

They caught (and killed) the man responsible for summoning the dragon.

They also prevented him from summoning a second dragon.

Wonse's mouth fell open. He dropped the remnant of his sword and backed away, clutching The Summoning.
"You'll be sorry," he hissed. "You'll all be very sorry!"
He started to mumble under his breath.
Vimes felt himself trembling. He was pretty certain he knew what had zinged past his head, and the mere thought was making his hands sweat. He'd come to the palace ready to kill and there'd been this minute, just this minute, when for once the world had seemed to be operating properly and he was in charge of it and now, now all he wanted was a drink. And a nice week's sleep.
"Oh, give up!" he said. "Are you going to come quietly?"
The mumbling went on. The air began to feel hot and dry.
Vimes shrugged. "That's it, then," he said, and turned away. "Throw the book at him, Carrot."
"Right, sir."

if we had swamp dragons, exactly as Pterry writes them in the Roundworld I guarantee you some people would go nuts over the smelly little boilers and do exactly what Sybil and her friends do

I can agree with that.

and yes most of those people would most likely be lonely but capable big-hearted women.

But I don't agree with that. I'm sure that there would be a few women who would fall in love with the things (for some reason or another), but I think most of the dragon breeders would be male. As a paralel example, look at alligators. Some people here in the states keep alligators as pets, but I've never known of a woman who does. It's the same with scorpions and tarantulas. I had a scorpion when I was in high school and I've seen the spiders for sale in the pet store, but I've never met a woman who wanted to take one home. Even my mom wouldn't (she'd pick it up gently with a jar & piece of cardboard and put it outside).

 

[poohbcarrot]

I honestly couldn't see why the Watch got the credit

They caught (and killed) the man responsible for summoning the dragon.

They also prevented him from summoning a second dragon.

Vetinari already knew who had summoned the dragon and wanted to keep Wonse alive because he would have been useful.

He couldn't have summoned a second dragon without the assistance of magical items, which he wasn't in possession of at the time.

 

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

Vetinari already knew who had summoned the dragon and wanted to keep Wonse alive because he would have been useful.

He couldn't have summoned a second dragon without the assistance of magical items, which he wasn't in possession of at the time.

Wonse was close to summoning another dragon. He had that bag of rocks with holes in them... a "known" magical item and they could smell the brimstone in the air. That is why Vimes told Carrot to throw the book at him.

At the End, Brenda Rodley of Quirm decided to breed Errol's line back a few times to see what happened. A New Dragon, just imagine...

 

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

Vetinari already knew who had summoned the dragon and wanted to keep Wonse alive because he would have been useful.

He only wanted Wonse's Head...

 

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

What I really wonder is has Sir Terry peeked at this thread?

If he has, does he marvel at the deep understanding of his readers and their ability to ferret out his Faulknerian foreshadowing or is he laughing his arse off.

Probably a bit of both, I should think.

We can be quite silly buggers when you get right down to it. :twisted:

 

[poohbcarrot]

He couldn't have summoned a second dragon without the assistance of magical items, which he wasn't in possession of at the time.

Wonse was close to summoning another dragon. He had that bag of rocks with holes in them... a "known" magical item and they could smell the brimstone in the air. That is why Vimes told Carrot to throw the book at him.

Oh bugger! That's what happens when I don't check before posting!

However, this then leads to the following question;

If he could summon dragons on his own, why did he need the Elucidated Brethren in the first place?

 

[Tonyblack]

Wonse is quite a complex character who hides behind others. He did it as a child, he did it when he worked for Vetinari and I guess he was doing it with the Bretheren as well. It's interesting that he was only interested in ruling the city from behind the king that he put on the throne. He's obviously an intelligent man, but he doesn't seem to seek obvious power.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

... I'm sure that there would be a few women who would fall in love with the things (for some reason or another), but I think most of the dragon breeders would be male. As a paralel example, look at alligators. Some people here in the states keep alligators as pets, but I've never known of a woman who does. It's the same with scorpions and tarantulas. I had a scorpion when I was in high school and I've seen the spiders for sale in the pet store, but I've never met a woman who wanted to take one home. Even my mom wouldn't (she'd pick it up gently with a jar & piece of cardboard and put it outside).

I was going to say you obviously don't know that many women then, but perhaps it's more a case of you don't know that many British women Women and snakes go together like ham and eggs etc etc and I went to school with a girl who kept them and big hairy spiders as pets - we had a reptile zoo up the road from us in Kent founded and run by a very eccentric old lady and her prize exhibit was the big croc who was in Live & Let Die and nearly 'ate' Roger Moore (would that he had! ) and in legend/mythology women are invariably associated with reptiles from Eve to Andromeda - yes as lunch in the latter case but why's it always women?
And my final tongue in cheek word on the subject... STRIPPERS :twisted:

Not my last serious word though, as there's a fairly well-known female natural history photographer (whose name of course I've forgotten) who actually swam in the same stretch of river or got up far too close filming giant wild crocs for over a year in the Grumeti River in the Serengeti...

Of course a large reptile fancy is far more macho and as you're making sweeping statements, let me return the favour by saying of course men would be far more likely to be attracted to large scaly things 'cos they tend to have a ridiculous obsession with the size of vicious things with teeth - However, we're not talking about ladies playing with the draco nobilis, we're talking draco vulgaris who in exceptional cases may reach a height of 36 inches and can perch on your shoulder as a fashion statement (which Sybil of course scoffs at as she wouldn't dream of using a swamp dragon as eye candy, but instead rescues the rejected dragons after the stupid wannabe femme fatale type aristos discover the drawbacks with the long talons, singed hair and corrosive crap...).

I could go on about women in medieval times who carried large vicious hawks on their wrists and rode out to hunt with them but no doubt that's a weak argument as hawks tend not to flame - it's a parody in a fantasy world and women are just as irrational as men when it comes to silly hobbies and accordingly their animal fetishes don't have to always run to small cute furry things :twisted:

 

[poohbcarrot]

And my final tongue in cheek word on the subject... STRIPPERS :twisted:

 

[poohbcarrot]

He's obviously an intelligent man, but he doesn't seem to seek obvious power.

But being the Supreme Grand Master of the Elucidated Brethren was purely and simply a power-thing, wasn't it?

 

[kakaze]

I was going to say you obviously don't know that many women then, but perhaps it's more a case of you don't know that many British women

Thanks for that! You're making me begin to doubt my own masculinity!

I think that I could say that I've known a quite large and varied number of women. Personality types have included fundamentalist Christians, tree-hugging hippies, green-haired punks with 30 ear-rings, wiccans, geneticists, globe-trotters, strippers, swingers, and even a couple of amateur porn stars.

But I admit that I've known very few British women. Most of the people that I've met have been from North & South America and from Asia.

Women and snakes go together like ham and eggs etc etc and I went to school with a girl who kept them and big hairy spiders as pets - we had a reptile zoo up the road from us in Kent founded and run by a very eccentric old lady and her prize exhibit was the big croc who was in Live & Let Die and nearly 'ate' Roger Moore

It certainly sounds more common on that side of "the pond"

in legend/mythology women are invariably associated with reptiles from Eve to Andromeda - yes as lunch in the latter case but why's it always women?

Because women are more fun to save, and more fun to watch being saved. Clark Kent isn't really Superman, he's just always hiding whenever anything dangerous happens.

And my final tongue in cheek word on the subject... STRIPPERS :twisted:

I don't get it.... do British stippers use snakes? How do you swing around a brass pole, upside-down, if you've got a 3 meter boa constrictor wrapped around your neck?

I could go on about women in medieval times who carried large vicious hawks on their wrists and rode out to hunt with them but no doubt that's a weak argument as hawks tend not to flame

I've always thought that raptors were rather noble and attractive, when they're not disembowling some poor rabbit.

it's a parody in a fantasy world and women are just as irrational as men when it comes to silly hobbies and accordingly their animal fetishes don't have to always run to small cute furry things :twisted:

Too true, and I think we're taking it too seriously!

If he could summon dragons on his own, why did he need the Elucidated Brethren in the first place?

Maybe it's easier if you've done it before?

Or maybe, since he used the Elucidated Brethren to imagine a dragon, he no longer needed them once there was a dragon actually flying around the city. He probably had thousands of people thinking about dragons (imagining it burning down that annoying neighbor's house) all around him.

Of course, he only needed it for as long as it would take to flame Vimes and Carrot.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

I was going to say you obviously don't know that many women then, but perhaps it's more a case of you don't know that many British women

Thanks for that! You're making me begin to doubt my own masculinity!

I think that I could say that I've known a quite large and varied number of women.....
But I admit that I've known very few British women. Most of the people that I've met have been from North & South America and from Asia.

You're forgiven in that case! It's the men who get us that crazy - they're even worse of course... *stands back laughing having lit blue touchpaper* :twisted:

in legend/mythology women are invariably associated with reptiles from Eve to Andromeda - yes as lunch in the latter case but why's it always women?

Because women are more fun to save, and more fun to watch being saved. Clark Kent isn't really Superman, he's just always hiding whenever anything dangerous happens.

Damn! I was trying to think why that was - but why always virgins, or is that some kind of metaphor? and you can just shut up straight off Pooh!
Mind you I always though Clark Kent was a bit of a perv but then he is an alien of course - vive la difference I always say

And my final tongue in cheek word on the subject... STRIPPERS :twisted:

I don't get it.... do British stippers use snakes? How do you swing around a brass pole, upside-down, if you've got a 3 meter boa constrictor wrapped around your neck?

Ah you colonials don't know what you're missing! - boas coil around the girl (or the bloke - lets not stereotype here) in interesting places and sort of ripple too - quite a bit warmer and less unforgiving than a brass pole and then of course there's that very mobile forked tongue....

 

[Tonyblack]

Back to the discussion after that interesting diversion.

Wonse seems to feel that having the support of the Brethren gives his plan some sort of credence. Again it's a bit like when he was in the gang as a kid - making suggestions and moving the gang in his direction without actually taking command.

Why does he feel the need to hide behind others?