SPOILERS Guards! Guards! Discussion Group *Spoilers*

[Dotsie]

I don't really see the sword as a contradiction, it is after all the sword of a true king, & who knows what that would be like? Only Terry in this case. It's not magical, but can never be beaten in combat - sounds perfectly logical to me

The only thing I think is strange, seeing as it's Carrot's sword, is the following:

the Patrician examines “the rusty blade carefully,”

Carrot would never have a rusty blade surely?

 

[Cheery]

Maybe he didn't have the time, beacause he was polishing his armour all the time.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Arms first Armour later - standard armed forces procedure Cheery and I agree with Dotsie that it's highly unlikely Carrot would have anything rusty.

 

[Trish]

I don't really see the sword as a contradiction, it is after all the sword of a true king, & who knows what that would be like?

The only thing I think is strange, seeing as it's Carrot's sword, is the following:

the Patrician examines “the rusty blade carefully,”

Carrot would never have a rusty blade surely?

Couple things about the sword.

Rusty, no, but patinad and pitted, yes.
Which is what happens to old steel and Carrot's sword is old.

Both Carrot and Vimes hold the sword, but only Vimes uses it.
Both are descended from either side of the 'Kingship Question' and both have no use for monarchy in AM.

 

[Dotsie]

Couple things about the sword.

Rusty, no, but patinad and pitted, yes.
Which is what happens to old steel and Carrot's sword is old.

It's described elsewhere in the book as having a dull blade, which I would accept, but the quote swreader gave definitely describes it as a rusty blade (I checked it myself, not that I don't trust swreader).

Both Carrot and Vimes hold the sword, but only Vimes uses it.

Yes, but it's still a King's sword. To do anything kingly (ie get pulled out of a stone), the king would have to do that.

Both are descended from either side of the 'Kingship Question' and both have no use for monarchy in AM.

That's true.

 

[Trish]

Dotsie--

Methinks the "dull" adjective is that of the blade itself, not its edge.
Why? Because the "shiny, bejewelled" sword that Wonse's cousin has.

You know, the one that's utterly useless.

Carrot's blade isn't pretty, it is functional workmanship.
His dwarf father even remarks upon how well it is made.

 

[Dotsie]

Dotsie--

Methinks the "dull" adjective is that of the blade itself, not its edge.

I think so too. Which means it wasn't rusty at the time of describing. Just dull!

 

[Tonyblack]

The actual passage is on page 300 of the paperback:

Lord Vetinari examined the rusty blade carefully.

I have to say that my thought was that Carrot was unlikely to have a rusty blade. I think this might be one that we chalk up to The Master missing it in the editting process. Even Terry is human.

 

[kakaze]

Maybe it's just a different kind of magic.

There's wizard magic, witch magic, and the reflected sounds of underground spirits...

maybe there's a royal magic.

remember that practictioners of one branch of magic are unable to understand another branch's magic.

 

[Trish]

Maybe it's just a different kind of magic.
Maybe there's a royal magic.

Or royal magnetism and carrot certainly has that.

 

[swreader]

Haven't gotten into this for a couple of days as have been (and still am) seeing doctors about what's wrong with my arthritic shoulders. First doctor said total shoulder replacement. I don't like that a bit, and am looking for other possibilities. Gets complicated when you're allergic to aspirin, all NSAIDs, Tylenol (or any stronger drug with any of these combined). Mutter, mutter!

As to the sword - I have to agree with Tony. The sword is described in ways that are inconsistent within this book, and especially if we go on to consider Carrot's use of the sword in Men at Arms. It's described as being not magical, well-balanced, a length of metal, more a sword than a saw, but only just, rusty, always sharp. (and possibly some other descriptions) . Now it simply can't be all of those things at the same time.

Why is it so hard to accept that Terry uses a description because it fits in that particular place, but forgets exactly what he said about it when he describes it later? Remember, THIS IS NOT A REAL SWORD--IT'S A LITERARY CREATION.

 

[Tonyblack]

It's interesting to imagine that this book was going to be a one-off. If that's the case then the kingship thing is undecided - Terry leaves us, the readers, to chuckle over the fact that there may be the rightful heir to the throne of A-M doing a fairly mundane job in the city. But the important thing is that he never says one way of the other.

We tend to look at G!G! with Men At Arms and the other Watch books in mind. We know that Carrot is the rightful heir from these books, but suppose G!G! was the one and only Guards book.

If that was the case then the sword is a plain, un-magical sword that is incredibly well made and sharp. The fancy sword was made to look good (as was Wonse's nephew). It looked like a king's sword should look - encrusted in jewels and very shiny. But it was probably just a piece of crap that broke the first time a real sword hit it.

So - taking G!G! as a one-off book, we simply do not have enough evidence to say whether Carrot's sword has power in the hand of a king or a leader of men. And if Terry had left the series at just that one book we would never know.

 

[mspanners]

Ha, but Terry did not leave it at one book.... the Sword has to have some sort of Magic in it that is possible only shown when it is in the rightful hands of the King, in a later books (no names, still trying to keep to the rules here may you note!) Carrot thrusts the Sword though a man and into a Marble piller with little effort.... now not being a Sword Man or Medieval Weapons expert this may be possible but I very much doubt it... to me this points to the Sword being Magical, not matter that it has been examined by a Witch I think the Magic only works, or is apparent when used by the Rightful Man. As for shearing the other Sword in half when Vimes used it this may be down to pure quality of the Swords, Carrots Old Rusty one was a real workmans Sword and the other may have been an ornate cheap piece of tat like the ones you can pick up in any market place when on Holiday in Spain or the like, look good but can not cut butter with them....

 

[poohbcarrot]

...and as Nobby and Colon say, it's not the person who pulls out the sword from the stone, but the person who put it in the stone in the first place who should be king. In the book Mspanners is talking about, Carrot not only pulls it out of the stone, but puts it in there in the first place.

 

[Tonyblack]

Oh I agree with you both when it comes to the later books, but I think that was a decision made sometime after the writing of Guards! Guards! - there are four years and six books between G!G! and the next Guards book.

What I'm talking about is looking at the powers the sword has, or doesn't have in this book alone.

 

[mspanners]

Point taken Sir! It is a bit strange that Carrot spends time on His Armour buffing and no time on the Sword, maybe He He thought He would get a new one eventually if He left it Rusty!

 

[Trish]

I have a request that is related to the Watch, but not to GG.

It's not a difficult surmise that "Men at Arms" will be next, but I dont' have a copy. Neither does Chapters, Waldenbooks or that other place --the library. So can we hold off on "MatA" til I get one? Please.....

 

[Tonyblack]

I have a request that is related to the Watch, but not to GG.

It's not a difficult surmise that "Men at Arms" will be next, but I dont' have a copy. Neither does Chapters, Waldenbooks or that other place --the library. So can we hold off on "MatA" til I get one? Please.....

Well it's not one of the ones that has been suggested for the next discussion, so I think you're safe.

But these discussions are meant to be on-going so that anyone can pick up on them in the future and add their comments. After a while I'll post a whole bunch of links to the various discussions - when we have a few more.

 

[mspanners]

Trish ..... YOU HAVE NOT GOT ALL THE WATCH BOOKS !!!!!!

I envy you... you have such a feast of fresh reading ahead of you,(I am assuming you have not read them yet!).

I wish I could reset my memory and re-read them all, been trying to over the Years with Cider but it has not worked....

Don`t know if you have any other Watch Books BUT if not then...


Just try to read them in the right order to get the most from them..... 8)

 

[swreader]

It's interesting to imagine that this book was going to be a one-off. If that's the case then the kingship thing is undecided - Terry leaves us, the readers, to chuckle over the fact that there may be the rightful heir to the throne of A-M doing a fairly mundane job in the city. But the important thing is that he never says one way of the other.

We tend to look at G!G! with Men At Arms and the other Watch books in mind. We know that Carrot is the rightful heir from these books, but suppose G!G! was the one and only Guards book.

If that was the case then the sword is a plain, un-magical sword that is incredibly well made and sharp. The fancy sword was made to look good (as was Wonse's nephew). It looked like a king's sword should look - encrusted in jewels and very shiny. But it was probably just a piece of crap that broke the first time a real sword hit it.

So - taking G!G! as a one-off book, we simply do not have enough evidence to say whether Carrot's sword has power in the hand of a king or a leader of men. And if Terry had left the series at just that one book we would never know.

I know that you keep insisting that GG was intended to be (at the time he wrote it ) a one-off book. Do you have any interview quotes that support this?

It seems much more likely to me that by the time Terry finished GG, he knew perfectly well he was going to write at least M at A--there are too many questions left unanswered. Is Carrot the rightful King? Will he take over Ank-Morpork? Will Vimes & Lady Rankin get married? What will Vimes's future be if he marries the richest lady in Ank-Morpork? I can almost believe that (as he says in the introduction to HFOS) that there was this book that kept demanding to be written--even if he held it off for a bit.

And let me expand on the sword as literary device just a bit-- clearly Terry describes it to fit into a particular scene, to make it believable and relevant for that scene. Therefore the sword when Carrot's father gives it to him is "more a sword than saw" (i.e.--it's got lots of nicks in it), it's old and has a good balance. As to being non-magical--remember that it was Magrat that said that. Do we really think she can tell if a sword is magical (she certainly can't manage a fairy godmother's wand).

And the sword survives the Dragon's fire--and the plunge into the pond. It's there because Terry needs it to be there. In the final scene with Wonse Terry is, among other things, making a pointed contrast between the types of government that these two people want. Wonse's sword-- false, glittery but not real-- is a metaphor for his view of government. But Wonse is trying to kill the Patrician with that sword. It may have been false--but I suspect (and so does the Patrician) that Wonse would have killed him with that sword had Vimes not acted. The sword, then, is part of the contrast between what is being developed as a workable (if not perfect) government which takes the weaknesses and follies of the general public into account, and the self-aggrandizing government with Wonse as an eminence grise because of the contempt with which Wonse regards every one but himself.

In other words, Terry has read Emerson "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds," and doesn't bother to make the descriptions match. He's writing a novel, a work of art--not a catalog of the King's possessions.