SPOILERS Havelock Vetenari and the Crossword Lady *Spoiler for Snuff*

[stripy_tie]

Throughout the books you get the general sense that Vetinari is entirely sexless and not one who would ever get into a physical relationship with anyone. One of his key attributes is that he never truly achieves a real level of physical or social intimacy with anyone. He's too much in control to ever let himself willingly be susceptible to the control of someone else.

His 'relationship' with Lady Margolotta is, at best, one of a very strong platonic friendship. He can't reveal too much of himself to her, because she is one of the power brokers of Uberwald. And, as a committed black-ribboner, she isn't going to turn him into a vampire.

As such, his life-long bachelorhood isn't that unusual in Ankh Morpork, considering that there's no evidence that any of the guild leaders are either married or in relationships, heterosexual or otherwise, and certainly none of the wizards are.

"I know who you are, he said. I know where you live. I know what kind of horse you ride. I know where your wife has her hair done. I know where your lovely children, how old are they now, my doesn't time fly, I know where they play. So you won't forget about what we agreed, will you? And he smiled.
So did they, after a fashion."-Vetinari speaking to the guild leaders.

So they've all had children in the past, couldn't say if most of the current ones do but if guild leaders are now commonly bachelors then it's a very recent thing.

 

[raisindot]

"I know who you are, he said. I know where you live. I know what kind of horse you ride. I know where your wife has her hair done. I know where your lovely children, how old are they now, my doesn't time fly, I know where they play. So you won't forget about what we agreed, will you? And he smiled.
So did they, after a fashion."-Vetinari speaking to the guild leaders.

So they've all had children in the past, couldn't say if most of the current ones do but if guild leaders are now commonly bachelors then it's a very recent thing.

I don't remember that quote. Where was it from? Anyone, he may have just been talking about one of them.

It just seems in general that at least some of the more prominent guild members live in the guilds. Dr. Whiteface seems to have permanent lodgings in the Fool's Guild, and you never hear of Lord Downey or Dr. Cruces occupying any other location than the Assassin's Guild. Doesn't mean they don't have wives or families. You just don't hear much about them. But throughout the books the number of not-so-young unmarried and uncoupled men in AM--Willekins, Drumknott, all of the wizards, all of the lodgers living at Wm. De Worde's boarding house, Cosmo Lavish, Vetinari, the clacks hackers, Stanley and Mr. Groat, Dr. Lawn, Hubert, A.E. Pessimel, Constable Visit, Nobby Nobbs--far outnumber the men who are identified as being married or in relationships.

 

[stripy_tie]

"I know who you are, he said. I know where you live. I know what kind of horse you ride. I know where your wife has her hair done. I know where your lovely children, how old are they now, my doesn't time fly, I know where they play. So you won't forget about what we agreed, will you? And he smiled.
So did they, after a fashion."-Vetinari speaking to the guild leaders.

So they've all had children in the past, couldn't say if most of the current ones do but if guild leaders are now commonly bachelors then it's a very recent thing.

I don't remember that quote. Where was it from? Anyone, he may have just been talking about one of them.

It just seems in general that at least some of the more prominent guild members live in the guilds. Dr. Whiteface seems to have permanent lodgings in the Fool's Guild, and you never hear of Lord Downey or Dr. Cruces occupying any other location than the Assassin's Guild. Doesn't mean they don't have wives or families. You just don't hear much about them. But throughout the books the number of not-so-young unmarried and uncoupled men in AM--Willekins, Drumknott, all of the wizards, all of the lodgers living at Wm. De Worde's boarding house, Cosmo Lavish, Vetinari, the clacks hackers, Stanley and Mr. Groat, Dr. Lawn, Hubert, A.E. Pessimel, Constable Visit, Nobby Nobbs--far outnumber the men who are identified as being married or in relationships.

Think it's either from Colour of Magic or Guards! Guards! i remember reading it that's how i thought to look for it online. It was in a passage describing how Vetinari set up the guild system and then waited for all of the guild leaders (and members) to get comfortable with their new lives. He then gathered them all together for a big feast or meeting and said this.

This pretty much states that at that time all the guild leaders had wives and children. I'm not saying that this hasn't changed to a certain extent as time has passed, as you say there's a trend towards single males in positions of power but i disagree about how extensive it is.

William De Worde has Sacharissa, Vimes has Sybil, Carrot has Angua, Lipwig has Dearheart (at least i think he does, i've only seen the film of going postal and i haven't read making money so don't spoil me please lol) and Mort had Ysabelle (still feel a tad sad about losing those two so early in the series).

Can we really count the wizards? since they're not actually allowed to get married

 

[madam]

just becuase we dont read about someone dosent mean they dont exist, i mean we hadnt heard about SPOILER! gravid and regina rust before snuff. id say that many (obviously not all) of the guild leaders/power brokers has significant others, it just that they arnt really interesting enough to write about .

my 2 groats worth on the Vetinari/Margolotta thing, is that the relationship was romantic/physical in the past, but probobly isnt now (however much id like it to be) what with aforementioned distance/political/trust issues. id still say they had a friendship going on, albeit a weird one.

as for future relationships margo,grace or yet-to-be-written character wise, it looks unlikly, simply becuase he's a very complicated individual in a very complicated situation and finding a woman (im assuming he's hetro) thats clever, invunerable (for a given value of) from assasination attempts ,interesting , attractive ,trustworthy, and patient , , enough for him without being a political risk or liable to go completly crazy from the stress would be allmost impossible or run into horrific sue territory.

Margo has a the first four traits but is a complete disaster otherwise, and grace may be totally safe politics wise but could easily be killed ( i think this last reason is also why he dosent have any close friends).

in short, even if anything did happen between him and somone else we'd never ever hear about it beyond subtle hints if that.

 

[Mary Skater]

Re:

as for future relationships ... it looks unlikly, simply becuase he's a very complicated individual in a very complicated situation and finding a woman (im assuming he's hetro) thats clever, invunerable (for a given value of) from assasination attempts ,interesting , attractive ,trustworthy, and patient ... would be allmost impossible ...

Leonard of Quirm could probably build one for him.

Mary

 

[Bouncy Castle]

Re: Havelock Vetenari and the Crossword Lady *Spoiler for Sn

I quite like the idea of Vetinari marrying this woman, and she rules him like Sybil rules Sam!

 

[Ziriath]

Re:

Throughout the books you get the general sense that Vetinari is entirely sexless and not one who would ever get into a physical relationship with anyone. One of his key attributes is that he never truly achieves a real level of physical or social intimacy with anyone. He's too much in control to ever let himself willingly be susceptible to the control of someone else.

His 'relationship' with Lady Margolotta is, at best, one of a very strong platonic friendship. He can't reveal too much of himself to her, because she is one of the power brokers of Uberwald. And, as a committed black-ribboner, she isn't going to turn him into a vampire.

As such, his life-long bachelorhood isn't that unusual in Ankh Morpork, considering that there's no evidence that any of the guild leaders are either married or in relationships, heterosexual or otherwise, and certainly none of the wizards are.

That's exactly how I see it. I think he was always an asexual. It seemed to me he was enjoying that high on bloodloss in MAA and poisoning in FoC, but he doesn't seem to me like a masochist.
Margolotta wouldnt bite him without a purpose, but he can become a vampire because of reasons though.

 

[cabbagehead]

Re: Havelock Vetenari and the Crossword Lady *Spoiler for Sn

The quote about Vetinari knowing about where family members of guild leaders spend their time is from Guards! Guards!. Also in Jingo there is mention of the wife of the head of the Thieves' Guild (71-Hour Achmed was offering to buy her off as part of his 'primitive Klatchian' act). Under Vetinari plenty of professions became guilds, I doubt bachelorhood was required of all those new guild heads.

Now that the Times' cartoonist has drawings of Morporkia, how long until the Anthropomorphic Personification of the city starts walking the streets? If she does, Vetinari might find himself married to her.

 

[Nullus Anxietas]

Re:

Why does vetinari apparently think that no one can have hidden depths? That's something that intrigued me ever since that bit came up first in...was it MM?

It was.

 

[Tonyblack]

Re: Re:

Why does vetinari apparently think that no one can have hidden depths? That's something that intrigued me ever since that bit came up first in...was it MM?

It was.

Welcome to the site, Nullus Anxietas!

 

[Nullus Anxietas]

Re: Havelock Vetenari and the Crossword Lady *Spoiler for Sn

Thank you, it's about time I came here.

 

[Archaeologist]

Re: Havelock Vetenari and the Crossword Lady *Spoiler for Sn

I extend my welcome to the new member, insofar as another new member can do so.

Vetinari has always seemed to me to be the Disc's version of Sherlock Holmes. If anyone's read the Holmes stories, I think you'd agree they are very much alike - that's why Vetinari bursting into laugher is something I really love about the character (I only know V from the later novels), because I'm already used to the idea of a sexless, ever-calculating character finding something, every so often, completely hilarious. For someone construed as emotionless, Sherlock laughs an awful lot.

I like the idea of Vetinari being in a non-sexual, psuedo-romantic relationship with Lady M. By pseudo-romantic, I mean he might hold a torch for her, but in the only way someone like Vetinari could. As for the Crossword Lady, it seems to me he simply enjoys having a perfectly harmless sparring partner. It might be fun for a guy like him to play a mind game in such a safe setting. Why would he laugh when he finds he's beaten her? And he acts like I do when I lose at Poker with Monopoly money - aww! Dang - this is fun, let's play again. Has anyone here read the Holmes story, A Scandal in Bohemia? The Crossword Lady is Vetinari's Irene Adler!

 

[Nullus Anxietas]

Re: Havelock Vetenari and the Crossword Lady *Spoiler for Sn

I think it was in UA, the crossword lady was mentioned too. Vetenari suspects the petshop woman is now in charge of the crosswords because she used to win first prize(or something like that) but her name now no longer comes up as a winner.

 

[raptornx01]

Re: Havelock Vetenari and the Crossword Lady *Spoiler for Sn

I know she was first mentioned awhile ago. but don't remember which book. talking about him getting a word, but the only people that knew it was the editor of the crossword, vetinari, and some woman that runs a pet shop who needed to be watched.

I smiled a bit that A) she BECAME the editor of the crossword, and B) there seems to be a competition between her and Vetinari.

And I do think he was genuinely mad, but remember these things often start that way.

As far as Lady Margolotta, They were together in the past (and not just platonically), Thanks to the Grand Sneer, but just keep in contact now.

 

[Ziriath]

Re: Havelock Vetenari and the Crossword Lady *Spoiler for Sn

Maybe we will never know- it could be like a relationship between Esme Weatherwax and Mustrum Ridcully.
Let him catch a (female) unicorn, and we will see.

 

[alicenanjing]

Re: Havelock Vetenari and the Crossword Lady *Spoiler for Sn

Are there any female unicorns? And no, don't say there must be, this is mythical beasts territory, they can be of only one gender if they like. Even on Discworld, the only one I've come across had escaped from the paralel universe of the elves, so all bets (and rules) are off and the axiom "only one of something doesn't work" does not apply. Maybe there's only one, in a separate dimension, all alone, standing between two mirrors, and sending images of itself across the multiverse in search of others as lonely as itself.