SPOILERS I Shall Wear Midnight *Spoilers*

[Who's Wee Dug]

You could before Terry was diagnosed with his embuggerance, you normally coud still get an exchanged membership when someone had to pull out for one reson or another, but this year was the fastest ever sale of memberships.
There is the Irish one next year in October or Scheibenwelt: German DiscworldConvention 2015 the week after, and if thats too far, Wincanton for Hogwatch end of November.

 

[Discworldpadawan]

Looks like Hogswatch would be my best option Dug. Is there limited spaces available for this too? Ones you have to book in advance? Off "I shall wear midnight"-topic here I know!

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

Discworldpadawan, it's an open event and free just turn up, but it's the accommadtion that might be the problem, there is a Travelodge just 10 minutes down the road near the roundabout, less than a mile

 

[Discworldpadawan]

Cheers Dug, that's most helpful

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

You could try nearer the time the Bear or the Dolphin as they may have a cancellation.

 

[fids]

I'm also rereading it at the moment and thoroughly enjoying it. Appaently, Terry has said he's working on another Tiffany book.

There's a wee bit of me that enjoy's Tiff more than the Watch so I hope so :clap:

 

[Mixa]

About who is in the cover... I think is an older Tiffany as well (because she wears the silver hare).

About the play on words... Yes, it was clever! The Spanish translation can't reflect is so well because there are two diferent verbs for each action: when you “marry someone” (in the bride and groom way) in Spanish is (literally) “to marry with someone”, so they saved the play on words saying that yes, in fact Tiffany is with Roland when he marries Letitia.

About Esk appearance... For me is one of the best parts of the book (if not the best)!!! Oh, I was SO happy and moved! Because “Equal Rites” really hooked me to Discworld so... Fond memories came to me!

About another Tiffany book... Why? I really liked how Pratchett finishes the plot and I thought it was the end of the series. Up to now I prefer ISWM as the last Tiffany book especially because, although I like it, her series is not one of my favourites.

Mx

 

[Discworldpadawan]

About another Tiffany book... Why? I really liked how Pratchett finishes the plot and I thought it was the end of the series.

I thought Tiff was given a good ending in this book, kinda will she - wont - she end up with Preston, - it could be left at that, but the scope is there for developement. But the reason I would like to see another Tiffany book is more for the Feegles shennanigans than to see what happenes to Tiffany next

 

[NineTenthsMadness]

I think Tiffany Aching is the sub-"series" of books I have read the most, even though she isn't my favourite. Tthat is not to say, though, that I don't like her - on the opposite, I absolutely adore Tiffany and the Feegles! Its just that reading Tiffany's personal story arc takes way less time than reading, Vimes, for example, or Granny Weatherway - okay, bad examples, maybe, since Vimes has almost as many cameos as Death and Granny Weatherwax's books include the TA books.

What I wanted to say, perhaps is: I love Tiffany Aching's books. In fact, the second Tffany Aching book was what got me back into Discworld after 10-15ish years of not having read another one (my previous experiences were, let's say, not crowned with success). I have to admit, the first time I read it I couldn't really appreciate "I Shall Wear Midnight" for reasons you all might guess (Tiffany/Roland *cough*), though I recently reread it, and it *is*, and always was, a great book. Even though I haven't yet read her book, I knew a fair bit about Esk, and so was thrilled when rumors said she'd return. In the end, I thought it was the perfect ending to Tiff's story arc, so I was a bit puzzled when a new book was announced, but I still look forward to it.

 

[Wyrdskein]

I Shall Wear Midnight

Just about to start reading this, after Snuff (which I enjoyed). I have stopped listening to the audiobooks, as I think Pratchett is probably better read than heard, although Stephen Briggs does an admiral job with the difficult, later books.

 

[Wyrdskein]

I really enjoyed this. The plot was fast, the characters funny and the whole thing very good. Onto Unseen Academicals now.

 

[Tonyblack]

I'd like to discuss Esk's comment about her son. I'm sorry if this has already been discussed - I'm going to admit that I didn't want to trawl through the whole thread again and don't see a problem with restating comments to keep the discussion going.

This is my thought. I have no real evidence to back it up and I don't think Terry ever gives us any sort of clue, but this sort of closes the cirlce with two characters. What is Rincewind is Esk's son? Given her ability to use time, it's not impossible. I'm am basing this on a line by Rincewind in one of, if not the first, Discworld book - he says something along the lines of, his mother left before he was born. Given that Rincewind gets out of some unbelievable scrapes, one wonders if someone is looking out for him.

Anyway, just a thought. What do you think?

 

[raisindot]

Hey, nothing wrong with speculation.

I just don't buy it, however. Rincewind is essentially a one-note cartoon character, hardly worthy of being the descendant of Esk. And the premise that Esk was "looking out for him" essentially negates the whole joke premise of Rincewind's narrative: That he escapes danger through a combination of dumb luck and a way of turning his incompetence into a advantage when it really counts.

My guess is that in ISWM Pterry was creating a setup for the "real" Esk son to appear in future Tiffany novels. He just never really had the time to do it. My best guess would be that the character in Shepherd who ended up becoming a warlock might have, had the series progressed, turned out to be the missing son.

 

[Tonyblack]

One thing that Esk and Rincewind share is that they have both been in the Dungeon Dimension and successfully escaped. Interestingly, I'm listening to The Science of Discworld 2 and there's a mention there of Rincewind escaping via a Magic Circle and the wizards arriving on Round World by the chance of someone there trying to use a Magic Circle. Terry recycles jokes. I have already seen one or to in the SOD2 that were later used in the Long Earth series - such as people taking a strange looking person (Russians in Long Earth and the shaved Librarian as a Spaniard in SOD2). There's also the mention of an intelligent species rising in both Round World and Long Earth based on crab like creatures as well as one based on dog like ones.

Yes, it probably is pure speculation about Esk's son, but it's an interesting comment that may have been explained in future books - I guess we'll never know for sure. Especially as Terry had all his hard drives destroyed.

 

[RathDarkblade]

One thing that Esk and Rincewind share is that they have both been in the Dungeon Dimension and successfully escaped. Interestingly, I'm listening to The Science of Discworld 2 and there's a mention there of Rincewind escaping via a Magic Circle...

Of course he did. See "Eric".

 

[Mixa]

Wow, that would be mind-blowing! Rincewind being Esk’s son? Omgggg

Anyway, I would like to think Esk is a better mother…

Mx

 

[RathDarkblade]

Sorry to resurrect this thread ( *polishes his Staff of Necromancy +12* ), but there's something I've just become aware of that blew my mind was very surprising.

I'll get to that, but I have some further thoughts on Rincewind being Esk's son:

Tony, you said that

What if Rincewind is Esk's son?... I'm basing this on a line by Rincewind in one of, if not the first, Discworld book - he says something along the lines of, his mother left before he was born. Given that Rincewind gets out of some unbelievable scrapes, one wonders if someone is looking out for him.

Raisindot, you countered with two assertions:

1.

Rincewind is essentially a one-note cartoon character, hardly worthy of being the descendant of Esk.

2.

And the premise that Esk was "looking out for him" essentially negates the whole joke premise of Rincewind's narrative: That he escapes danger through a combination of dumb luck and a way of turning his incompetence into an advantage when it really counts.

Of course this is all speculation, but I'd like to point out that:

1. First of all, obviously, Characterisation Marches On. In the early novels, Rincewind was a way to introduce the Discworld to readers, through his relationship with Twoflower. True, he was a "jokey" character, and much that happened to him -- as well as his escapes -- was by accident or by pure luck. (In TLF, we learn that he is under the special protection of The Lady. We all know what The Lady symbolises, so the fact that Rincewind escapes through her aid is not a joke or a coincidence).

Still, I would argue that despite Rincewind's amazing luck, he also shows an incredible bravery and resourcefulness. No-one else throughout the canon has faced so much danger willingly. Observe:

a. In TLF, Rincewind could have run away from Trymon, but he didn't.
b. In IT, Rincewind could have walked away from the juvenile Red Army and left them to die, but he shouted them down and almost convinced them to his point of view.
c. In the same novel, Rincewind could have led the terracotta Red Army away from the battle. But he led them into it. (The fact that he had no idea what was happening doesn't matter).
d. In TLH, Rincewind could have backed out of facing down Cohen on Cori Celesti, but he volunteered.

And so on. When push really comes to shove, Rincewind doesn't run away. He finds something to fight with, even if it's just a half-brick in a sock, and uses it. Yes, he runs away a lot, but he's actually brave - even if it's just a little.

Besides, what tools does he have to be brave with? He's not an amazing fighter like Cohen, or a dexterous rogue like Conina. He doesn't have much at all. But if you back him into a corner, he'll fight back (like Magrat does in WA and LL).

2. Based on the above, I take exception to the assertion that he's not "worthy" of being Esk's son. Of course he is. He's not an amazing wizard, of course, but so what? No other wizard kept (and protected) one of the Great Spells in his own mind. That's got to be worth something. No other wizard faced so many dangers and lived, either. In the grand scheme of things, that's got to be worth something.

I'm also very leery of the term "worthy". Esk gave birth; that's undeniable. How do you judge the "worth" of a baby, or a child, or a man? If, rhetorically speaking, he is Esk's son, how do we know that Esk isn't proud of him? That's right - we don't.

One final thought: Rincewind isn't a hero in the same way that Vimes / Carrot / Granny / etc. are. But so what? He's done so many things - in a cowardly or brave way, it doesn't matter - that it seems heartless to deny him "worth". If Mr Nutt has worth, then I'd argue that Rincewind does too.
==================
Anyway, on to the other thing that blew my mind surprised me about ISWM:

Towards the beginning of the novel, Tiffany is made aware of Mr Petty and what he did to his daughter, Amber. STP refers to the 'dissonant piping and war-drums of vengeance' sounds of the 'rough music'.

For a long time, I found this scene (and the thoughts of what Mr Petty did, and what the crowd would do to him) chilling. Obviously. But I never thought to connect it to the real-world folk custom of charivari (aka 'skimmington', 'shivaree' or 'chivaree'). =( I've read about it in history books, and of course it was horrible, but somehow distant. To see it 'illustrated' by characters like Tiffany, Mr Petty and Amber Petty made it ... well, more 'real'. It was possible to feel Mr Petty's shame and anguish, the crowd's fury, Tiffany's ambivalence at having to judge him.

It's even more horrible now that such scenes played out across Europe and North America for centuries. I would have thanked goodness that we live in more enlightened times, except that nowadays the custom of charivari has been replaced with 'trial by media' and/or 'trial by social media'. Which is both horrifying and depressing. =( Whoops, it seems I brought this thread into a very dark place -- sorry about that!

Anyway, I've rambled enough. What's your take, hmm?

 

[raisindot]

Two reactions:

One, your theory that Rincewind could be Esk's son still doesn't hold water at all. Pterry would have been smart enough to drop a hint in ISWM that could have pointed the way. My guess is that he lived long enough, Pterry would have eventually revealed who the son was, most likely in a future Tiffany book. But by the time of The Shepherd's Crown the embuggerance was so bad that I doubt he had the ability to make such a reveal (or chose not to).

Second, public shamings and mob justice similar to chivaree have played out in nearly every society around the world since the beginning of time. Replace the drums with a willow tree and a noose and you have the history of lynching in the southern states in the U.S. And this stuff still goes on beyond social media. Mobs in India regularly rape and kill innocent women. Mobs of ultra-religious Jewish men in Jerusalem throw stones at women they deem are dressed immorally. The whole January 6 event, where mobs of right ring extremists attacked Congress trying to stop a legitimate election. This stuff still goes on, everywhere in the world, and in many cases, the police seemly sit by and let it happen.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Fair enough. I'd just like to add a few things:

- Firstly, we don't know if Rincewind is Esk's son or not. Maybe yes, maybe no. But it's fun to imagine. Still, I agree with you that -- magic-wise, at least -- Geoffrey (from The Shepherd's Crown) seems more likely.

- As for public shamings and mob justice ... it's very unfortunate. I won't even go into the "honour killings" that take place in ultra-conservative Islamic countries.

- Finally, as for the police sitting by and letting it happen: I'm not sure what they would do, even if they could. In most Western countries, we're used to giving the police power because they've had it for centuries. Over here, the law is king, even if it doesn't apply to everyone equally.

But in other countries (Afghanistan, for instance), power still seems to reside in the hands of disparate tribal warlords who oppose any kind of central authority. Everyone obeys these warlords not because it's the law, but because they have the most weapons.

To Western eyes this may seem barbaric, but it's exactly how (most of) Europe operated for centuries. England (not including Wales or Scotland, etc.) was only a unified country when the king was militarily strong (e.g. not during the Wars of the Roses or the Civil War). We all know what happened when law and order broke down completely, e.g. during The Anarchy.

Other parts of Europe were the same. Metternich notoriously said of Italy that it was "only a geographical expression". France never became a unified country until after the 100 Years War (and probably not even then). Germany wasn't a country until Bismarck came along, etc. Until then, the only law was what the local stakeholders could enforce.

It's the rule of law that binds everyone together, more or less - and people only respect the law (or the police) if an authority (central or otherwise) can enforce it.

It reminds me of something Terry wrote once (in Thud!, I think?) -- I think Vimes thinks it -- about how the police is always horribly outnumbered. If people stop respecting the badge, the police's authority evaporates, and a policeman rapidly becomes a smear on the pavement. (Something like that, anyway).