SPOILERS Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

[=Tamar]

It is also true that games evolve and sometimes devolve. Two very similar games can co-exist in the same country, or even in the same town, especially when there are no written rules.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Just an observation: towards the start of "Jingo", when Reg Shoe interrupts the football game, Carrot introduces him to the rival gangs. All their stares say clearly: We'll remember your face, copper.

For years and years, I thought this was just the usual threatening glare that a thug gives a copper.

But then, a few days ago, I realised: Of course they'll remember his face. He's a zombie! His skin's peeling off, and one ear is hanging by a nail. How can you forget a face like that? Not many faces, even in A-M, that's not a face that blends into a crowd.

I know it's not exactly the revelation of the year - far from it - but I just found it amusing. What do you think?

 

[=Tamar]

You make a good point. I hadn't considered that'

While normally their stares would be threatening, knowing that Reg is unkillable, extremely strong, and that if cut he will just sew bits back on should make them want to remember to avoid him.

 

[RathDarkblade]

I'm not sure if anyone has already said this (I went through the thread and can't find it), but I'd like to address the character of Solid Jackson.

Just a reminder: Solid Jackson, an Ankh-Morpork fisherman, fishes for Curious Squid. He's also one of the first people to see the island of Leshp rise from the depths.

I'm currently reading a dictionary of 1930s-1950s slang (The Cheaper the Crook, The Gaudier the Patter, if you're interested; it's named after a quote from Dashiell Hammett), and I just came across this:

In the hepster community of the 1920s (and the hipster community of the 1930s, both based in Harlem), solid was a slang word.

As a noun, 'solid' meant 'favour' (as in, 'Do me a solid, co-sign this loan'). As an adjective, 'solid' meant wonderful or terrific.

It was later copied by the white community in the 1950s in the campy phrase "Solid, Jackson."

Pterry would've been a youngster in the 1950s and probably aware of this phrase.

This phrase became widespread enough to sprout a 1950s comic-book character by that name. If you're curious, here is one of his adventures.

So now we know!

 

[=Tamar]

Good catch!
I was aware of "solid" as 1930s slang from a Thin Man movie,
but I don't think I came across Solid Jackson before. Too bad
he's such a jerk.

 

[Ponderstibbons]

Jingo is one of my favorite books, although I think it has some odd weaknesses.(more about them in later posts) I think that my reason for rating it so highly is that it's the first book I read which showed Terry's ability as a satirist in revealing the absolute stupidity of racism and wars in general by making the protagonists of the War Parties really laughable--totally stupid characters. Lord Rust's pompous "seizing" of power (and letting Vetinari work behind the scenes) reminded me so much of G. Bush's plans and actions in Iraq that I wondered if Terry had become prescient. And Prince Cadram's callous, self-aggrandizing plot to have his brother killed in AM so that he can get the tribes together to start a war certainly has all sorts of parallels in round world - from the US to the USSR. There's nothing that unites a "country" like a "good war".

This is one of the few books in which I thought Colon and Nobby functioned beautifully as humorous characters. Their analysis of who shot at Khfurah is hilariously characteristic of their notion of police work (we know it was a Klatcian because there's the sand from his shoes). And the scenes in Klatch, especially Nobby with the ladies at the well, is the first time I really saw Nobby as a human being--a rather odd one, but "there's not so queer as folks."

There is some powerful writing in this book. I agree with Tony that the roll of deaths of the Watch members by the dis-organizer (who is in the pocket of the "wrong" Vimes from the trousers of time) is chilling. And yet, Terry puts it (as a gadget) in it's place in it's conversation with DEATH, and it's eventual home with the shark.

Jeff, I agree with most of what you said. But contrary to all of you--I think that this IS NOT A BOOK ABOUT FOOTBALL! And I suppose that the games reference to the WW 1 game that Tony mentions is probably deliberate--not because it's football, but because it makes clear (as Terry does throughout the book) that in fact there's very little difference between the average Klatchian and the average Ank-Morporkian. But I think the real reason for the game is that Terry needs to give Carrot something to do--and he's got two armies who are "poised to fight." So, a football GAME, rather than a war allows him to keep the satiric focus where it should be -- on the people who are responsible for the wars rather than the victims (soldiers).

And of course the final coup is pulled off by Vetinari--who whips the "carpet" out from under the Klatchian leader by setting up a surrender which can only be ratified on a piece of land that Vetinari knows will not be there in four days. He has dealt with "the big picture" in a way that neither Vimes nor Ahmed could do. And he has fought a war at almost no cost. As Vetinari tells Vimes:
"And you say bought and sold? All right. But not, I think, needlessly spent." The Patrician flashed one of those sharp, fleeting little smiles to say that something that wasn't very funny had nevertheless amused him. "Veni, vici . . . Vetinari."

Excellent analysis Swreader. I have just finished reading it!

 

[RathDarkblade]

... and what did you think of it, Ponder?

Jingo is still one of my favourite books. Vimes is just being Vimes. I love the way that Vetinari works behind the scenes. And, of course, the Vetinari/Colon/Nobby scenes are hilarious.

I also enjoyed the "Nobby and ladies at the well" scene ... yes, Nobby is still strange, but not more than usual, and this scene 'humanises' him, for lack of a better word. We've learned a little about him before, but only that he's a liar, a thief, a little stupid, and a member of the Ankh-Morpork 'Peeled Nuts'. But for the first time, we get to see behind the facade.

I also think this book is one of the first times that we begin to see the differences between Nobby and Colon. Previously, they've both been 'coppers who are out of their depth'. Now, Colon gets racism added to the mix.

Spoiler

I don't think Colon gets 'redeemed' from that until Snuff.

(**EDIT** Whoops! I think I accidentally wrote a spoilerish bit about a book you haven't yet read, Ponder, so I marked it with a SPOILER tag. Please don't read it if you don't wish to be spoiled).

 

[Ponderstibbons]

... and what did you think of it, Ponder?

Jingo is still one of my favourite books. Vimes is just being Vimes. I love the way that Vetinari works behind the scenes. And, of course, the Vetinari/Colon/Nobby scenes are hilarious.

I also enjoyed the "Nobby and ladies at the well" scene ... yes, Nobby is still strange, but not more than usual, and this scene 'humanises' him, for lack of a better word. We've learned a little about him before, but only that he's a liar, a thief, a little stupid, and a member of the Ankh-Morpork 'Peeled Nuts'. But for the first time, we get to see behind the facade.

I also think this book is one of the first times that we begin to see the differences between Nobby and Colon. Previously, they've both been 'coppers who are out of their depth'. Now, Colon gets racism added to the mix.

Spoiler

I don't think Colon gets 'redeemed' from that until Snuff.

(**EDIT** Whoops! I think I accidentally wrote a spoilerish bit about a book you haven't yet read, Ponder, so I marked it with a SPOILER tag. Please don't read it if you don't wish to be spoiled).

 

[Ponderstibbons]

Hi Rath. I enjoyed it very much. The satire is razor sharp, made me reflect on the venality of politics, the lessons we never learn from history. I don't possess the confidence in a forum environment , to deeply analyse or deconstruct the novels, but I am very much enjoying reading them and seeing what others think. Ready to start The Last Continent!

 

[RathDarkblade]

I don't possess the confidence in a forum environment, to deeply analyse or deconstruct the novels, but I am very much enjoying reading them and seeing what others think.

Please don't be afraid. We're all very welcoming here and interested in what you think. There's no need for deep analysis or deconstruction; we're interested even in an aside about a character or an issue that Terry raises (like Colon, or Nobby, or ...)

As an aside, I think this is the first time Terry touches on racism, at least explicitly. In Men at Arms (and before it, in Equal Rites), Terry touches on sexism and how stupid it is. Feet of Clay again shows how disabling sexism can be (see Cheery Littlebottom's character), and it also shows an implicit critique of discrimination generally -- i.e. what people think of golems. No-one stops to ask what golems think, not even Carrot -- not until the end of FOC (and I'm not sure it happens even then).

Ready to start The Last Continent!

I hope you enjoy it! It's full of all kinds of Australiana, but I'm sure you can tell that from the cover. (I live in Australia, and I laughed my **** off). If you come across something that doesn't quite make sense, or makes a weird kind of sense but you're not sure why, please feel free to ask. I'm sure I (and lots of other people) will be happy to help.

 

[Ponderstibbons]

Please don't be afraid. We're all very welcoming here and interested in what you think. There's no need for deep analysis or deconstruction; we're interested even in an aside about a character or an issue that Terry raises (like Colon, or Nobby, or ...)

As an aside, I think this is the first time Terry touches on racism, at least explicitly. In Men at Arms (and before it, in Equal Rites), Terry touches on sexism and how stupid it is. Feet of Clay again shows how disabling sexism can be (see Cheery Littlebottom's character), and it also shows an implicit critique of discrimination generally -- i.e. what people think of golems. No-one stops to ask what golems think, not even Carrot -- not until the end of FOC (and I'm not sure it happens even then).



I hope you enjoy it! It's full of all kinds of Australiana, but I'm sure you can tell that from the cover. (I live in Australia, and I laughed my **** off). If you come across something that doesn't quite make sense, or makes a weird kind of sense but you're not sure why, please feel free to ask. I'm sure I (and lots of other people) will be happy to help.

Thanks Rath, for your kind comments and your, and the forums inclusive attitude. I find I go on it daily and really enjoy the contributions of others. I am genuinely more of ( I think) an appreciator ( is that a word??) of others comments, wit, reflections etc on the work of the late, great man, than someone who might start a thread, discussion etc. It takes all sorts as they say. Thankyou, Rath for taking the time to reply to my comment.