SPOILERS Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

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Jul 25, 2008
720
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Tucson, Arizona, U.S.A.
#21
Jingo is one of my favorite books, although I think it has some odd weaknesses.(more about them in later posts) I think that my reason for rating it so highly is that it's the first book I read which showed Terry's ability as a satirist in revealing the absolute stupidity of racism and wars in general by making the protagonists of the War Parties really laughable--totally stupid characters. Lord Rust's pompous "seizing" of power (and letting Vetinari work behind the scenes) reminded me so much of G. Bush's plans and actions in Iraq that I wondered if Terry had become prescient. And Prince Cadram's callous, self-aggrandizing plot to have his brother killed in AM so that he can get the tribes together to start a war certainly has all sorts of parallels in round world - from the US to the USSR. There's nothing that unites a "country" like a "good war".

This is one of the few books in which I thought Colon and Nobby functioned beautifully as humorous characters. Their analysis of who shot at Khfurah is hilariously characteristic of their notion of police work (we know it was a Klatcian because there's the sand from his shoes). And the scenes in Klatch, especially Nobby with the ladies at the well, is the first time I really saw Nobby as a human being--a rather odd one, but "there's not so queer as folks."

There is some powerful writing in this book. I agree with Tony that the roll of deaths of the Watch members by the dis-organizer (who is in the pocket of the "wrong" Vimes from the trousers of time) is chilling. And yet, Terry puts it (as a gadget) in it's place in it's conversation with DEATH, and it's eventual home with the shark.

Jeff, I agree with most of what you said. But contrary to all of you--I think that this IS NOT A BOOK ABOUT FOOTBALL! And I suppose that the games reference to the WW 1 game that Tony mentions is probably deliberate--not because it's football, but because it makes clear (as Terry does throughout the book) that in fact there's very little difference between the average Klatchian and the average Ank-Morporkian. But I think the real reason for the game is that Terry needs to give Carrot something to do--and he's got two armies who are "poised to fight." So, a football GAME, rather than a war allows him to keep the satiric focus where it should be -- on the people who are responsible for the wars rather than the victims (soldiers).

And of course the final coup is pulled off by Vetinari--who whips the "carpet" out from under the Klatchian leader by setting up a surrender which can only be ratified on a piece of land that Vetinari knows will not be there in four days. He has dealt with "the big picture" in a way that neither Vimes nor Ahmed could do. And he has fought a war at almost no cost. As Vetinari tells Vimes:
"And you say bought and sold? All right. But not, I think, needlessly spent." The Patrician flashed one of those sharp, fleeting little smiles to say that something that wasn't very funny had nevertheless amused him. "Veni, vici . . . Vetinari."
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,347
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#23
Another interesting aspect of Jingo is that it is the only book in which the Patrician actually physically saves Vimes' life and his soul.

Perhaps this is a kind of karmic payback, as in the preceding three guards books, Vimes either saves Vetinari's life or solves a challenge that threatens Vetinari's patricianship. And in the books that follow, Vimes actions ultimately consciously or unconsciously help Vetinari remain patrician (The Truth), pave the way for his ascension of patricianhood (Night Watch) or achieve his political and economic goals (The Fifth Elephant, Thud)

In Jingo, however, Vetinari steps in at the last minute and prevents Vimes from giving in to The Beast. We never really know whether Vimes would have murdered the Prince in cold blood if Vetinari hadn't disarmed him. But we do know what would have happened to Vimes if he had followed through.
It's a great bit of dramatic writing by Pterry, and adds yet another shade to the symbiotic relationship between the two men.

J-I-B
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
31,034
3,650
Cardiff, Wales
#26
Bouncy Castle said:
I've probably said this before, but I'll say it again - I thought Jingo was about the futility of the Falklands war.
And the Cod War - and, I think, the idea of starting a war to win an election - Thatcher anyone? :)
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,347
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#29
poohcarrot said:
raisindot said:
Another interesting aspect of Jingo is that it is the only book in which the Patrician actually physically saves Vimes' life and his soul.
J-I-B
In Night Watch Vetinari physically saves Vimes' life twice! (I think o_O )
[Spoiler alert]

Oh yeah. I was thinking in terms of Vimes and Vetinari consciously making a decision to save each other and instantly recognizing their mutual debt. In Night Watch, the young Vetinari doesn't know that the Keel whose life he saves at the beginning is really future-Vimes and Vimes-as-Keel doesn't know who shot his would-be assassin.

However, the truth of this does come in the last scene in the cemetery. So, in the end, Vimes does finally realize that he owes his life to the young Vetinari, while Vetinari realizes he owes his patricianship to Vimes as Keel. Each acknowledges his debt to the other in different ways.

Bringing it back to Jingo, it's interesting to contrast how Vetinari intervenes during Vimes's moment of doubt, but at the end of Night Watch he refrains from getting involved in Vimes's fight with Carcer, because he wants to see if Vimes has truly mastered The Beast on his own.

Again, comparing the took books shows how Pterry is able to add layers of psychological and literary complexity to these characters as the series continues. How many authors are able to do that consistently?

J-I-B
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
31,034
3,650
Cardiff, Wales
#31
One of the interesting parts of this book (to me) was Nobby and Fred Colon. They've really gelled into a double act in this book. We see it again, particularly in Thud!

Nobby comes across as a lot more intelligent than Fred in that he seems to set Fred up with his questions and one wonders if he's doing it on purpose. Fred, of course, tries to act superior and just makes himself look even more stupid and bigoted than before.
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,347
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#32
Colon definitely seems to be at his worst here. In the previous books he was more of a semi-competent desk jockey but mostly inoffensive.

Here he's simply little more than a xenophobic, cowardly, stupid fool. Nobby definitely is winding him up, since he really is much smarter than Colon, although this is a relative comparison.

But at least here Colon and Nobby's comedy team actually contributes to the resolution of the plot. In most of the other books they play little more than Rosencranz and Guildenstern surrogates, interrupting the main narrative with a bit of largely irrelevant comic relief.

J-I-B
 

Jan Van Quirm

Sergeant-at-Arms
Nov 7, 2008
8,524
2,800
Dunheved, Kernow
www.janhawke.me.uk
#39
Turf war - just because it's there in an open fishing ground. :laugh:

If we're doing roundworld analogies then possibly the Cod War's the best one as they're fighting over something that's not fixed except transiently. Leshp like the fish in unratified Icelandic territorial waters is not a permanent feature, in that it wasn't always there and, unknown to the fishermen or anyone else except for Leonard, is not sticking around this time either. :p
 

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