SPOILERS Jingo Discussion *spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
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Mixa said:
Well, one can't know. Discworld is a so crazy place to think coherently, isn't it? 
Mx
Mx
As I remember I always have taken this rather metaphorically, octarine fire which appears and which the human eye forms to something like "hands" and which the human mind forms to something like "huuu, now it is guidung us through the storm, thanks the gods, yippieh!" although the ship manages it out of sheer luck while the octarine fire is a simple natural effect (St. Ugulant's Fire as it is called on discworl). No real thing, not even real "handlike" looking fire, no real guiding, more like if when you say the fire of a lighthouse would be guiding ships into the harbour. So at least I saw this passage.
On the other hand, Terry puts his words very carefully, and as you said seldom at random ... :think:
Hm, here I may be biased by my interest of naval history and the British Royal Navy in the age of sail (and reading about it), but ... actually ships threw all possible stuff overboard to get lighter and to fasten either to catch or to escape from an enemie. Especially at second occasion even the cannons has been thrown overboard, freshwater has been pumped into the sea, food and livestock, cows, sheeps, chickens (still alive of course), and yes, anchors and boats, too, if necessary ... this all went overboard simply to increase the speed by a fraction of a knot.
So I was rather familiar with the concept "everything over board!" as I read this text passage.
Indeed, sometimes I got the feeling, Terry too knows some thing or the other about the age of sail, including the totally ignorance of the common landlubber as Vimes turns out to be.
And yes, the rain of lobsters also reminded me at the manna from sky and what else could Lord Rust get than boiled lobsters.
On the other hand, Terry puts his words very carefully, and as you said seldom at random ... :think:
Hm, here I may be biased by my interest of naval history and the British Royal Navy in the age of sail (and reading about it), but ... actually ships threw all possible stuff overboard to get lighter and to fasten either to catch or to escape from an enemie. Especially at second occasion even the cannons has been thrown overboard, freshwater has been pumped into the sea, food and livestock, cows, sheeps, chickens (still alive of course), and yes, anchors and boats, too, if necessary ... this all went overboard simply to increase the speed by a fraction of a knot.
So I was rather familiar with the concept "everything over board!" as I read this text passage.
Indeed, sometimes I got the feeling, Terry too knows some thing or the other about the age of sail, including the totally ignorance of the common landlubber as Vimes turns out to be.
And yes, the rain of lobsters also reminded me at the manna from sky and what else could Lord Rust get than boiled lobsters.
Well, I think the point Pterry was trying to make was that, unlike on Earth, where St. Elmo's fire is just a form of electricity, St. Ugulant's fire is true octarine-based magic. The case for "intelligent magic" helping Vimes & Co is also manifested in the things that fall from the sky--bedsteads, tins of sardines, etc. These are no mere "natural phenomena," suggesting, for whatever reason, that there is either a god or some kind of supernatural presence that is guiding Vimes's boat through the storm. The question is: Why?
Halfway through Jingo All! Although I have a query r.e. 71 Hour Ahmed, I haven't got as far as finding out WHY he is called this yet (don't spoil it! ), but in The art of Discworld, he is called 72 hour ACHMED (with a "c"), instead of 71 hour Ahmed, as he is in Jingo. Why the difference in 71 - 72, and the different spelling, does he have a change in title, or are these two different people, or is it just a typo error?
), but in The art of Discworld, he is called 72 hour ACHMED (with a "c"), instead of 71 hour Ahmed, as he is in Jingo. Why the difference in 71 - 72, and the different spelling, does he have a change in title, or are these two different people, or is it just a typo error?
Discworldpadawan said:
Halfway through Jingo All! Although I have a query r.e. 71 Hour Ahmed, I haven't got as far as finding out WHY he is called this yet (don't spoil it! ), but in The art of Discworld, he is called 72 hour ACHMED (with a "c"), instead of 71 hour Ahmed, as he is in Jingo. Why the difference in 71 - 72, and the different spelling, does he have a change in title, or are these two different people, or is it just a typo error?
), but in The art of Discworld, he is called 72 hour ACHMED (with a "c"), instead of 71 hour Ahmed, as he is in Jingo. Why the difference in 71 - 72, and the different spelling, does he have a change in title, or are these two different people, or is it just a typo error?
Well I've finished Jingo now, another hoot of a read yet again! I think this is the watch book that has given me the most laughs to-date One that springs to mind, when nobby's in his disguise, and after vetinari's done his juggling display, - "and now the lovely Beti will do an exotic dance", cue moans and groans from the audience, then "how much do we have to pay you for her not to dance"? !
I liked 71 Hour Ahmed again, really didn't see it coming that he was also Klatch's version of a watchman! Are there any discworld books at all that concentrate more on the Klatchian version of the watch?
One that springs to mind, when nobby's in his disguise, and after vetinari's done his juggling display, - "and now the lovely Beti will do an exotic dance", cue moans and groans from the audience, then "how much do we have to pay you for her not to dance"? ! I liked 71 Hour Ahmed again, really didn't see it coming that he was also Klatch's version of a watchman! Are there any discworld books at all that concentrate more on the Klatchian version of the watch?
That is most deffinately the plan Mixa! I have the fifth elephant on order, but also have "the last hero" here in the house, unread. Very tempting to start reading this, but I really want to hold out and get back to Vimes and Co. when fifth elephant arrives! Decisions, decisions! Dissapointing that the Klatchian version of the watch don't get a proper outing all to themselves tho, concentrating around 71-HOUR Ahmed. Maybe something for a future, future book, if Rhianna (terry's daughter) is reading this?! 
Dissapointing that the Klatchian version of the watch don't get a proper outing all to themselves tho, concentrating around 71-HOUR Ahmed. Maybe something for a future, future book, if Rhianna (terry's daughter) is reading this?! I really, really like Jingo. It not only has the start of what I call the "Dark Carrot" Arc (eventually concluded in TFE), but every time I read the climax with Vimes' "Organizer" rattling of the deaths of his companions, shivers run down my back. It's just so effective for what it is, and I cannot even begin to tell you what it is (safe for a huge tear jerker, among other things), but is is something that only works as a literary device because of the Discworld being what it is, and Pterry being who he is. In my opinion this book would simply not work without his writing style, and I cannot even give hard evidence for this fact - simply my feeling.
:doh: I've just had a revelation regarding this book and the letter from Vetinari. My original thoughts were that Vetinari was reminding Vimes (through the title on the envelope) that he, Vimes was allowed to form his own troops. That is still the case, but added to this is the blank piece of paper - quite literally carte blanche - the authority of a person to sign a treaty or convention on behalf of a sovereign state. It is also a way that Vetinari can deny any involvement should Vimes fail.
Terry never ceases to amaze me with the levels of his writing.
Terry never ceases to amaze me with the levels of his writing.
Interesting point. Not so sure the paper represents Vimes authority to sign a treaty--he can't, because he's not the sovereign head of state--but I agree with you that it could symbolize the "clean slate" idea: That Vimes, now free from Vetinari's authority (since VImes is no longer head of the Watch and Vetinari no longer the Patrician), no longer needs to think of himself as "Vetinari's Terrier" and can proceed to administer justice as he see fits. The irony of this is that, in spite of this "freedom," he ends up doing exactly what Vetinari wants him to do--up to the minute where Vetinari reassumes control and VImes's freedom to act is (fortunately) curtailed.
I should have put the definition in quotes as it was from from a dictionary. It doesn't fit the story perfectly, but the very fact that there was a piece of blank paper in there, rather than just an empty envelope, places some significance on the blank paper. At least that's my thought. It has always slightly bothered me that the paper was in there in the first place. It's like Vetinari saying: here's unwritten approval to act for the city. However, there are no written orders from me and, although I trust you will do what is best, I will not present proof for that approval.
Until now I had always thought Vetinari included the blank paper just so Vimes wouldn't think that something had been stolen from the envelope. But I think your interpretation is much better. And, as you said, it shows Pterry's ability to work on both literal and metaphorical level within the same paragraph or even the same sentence.
I've always associated it with the use of carte blanche in The Three Musketeers, where it appears to be a blanket permission for absolutely anything, up to and including murder of anyone, not just making treaties, and is official permission from the king - because, if I recall correctly, it's signed. However, as you pointed out, Vetinari didn't sign the paper.
I haven't reread Jingo lately. Are there independent witnesses who could testify that Vetinari sent _something_ to Vimes in an envelope marked with Vimes's full title? If so, he could point out that Vetinari had sent him an indirect order to "write his own ticket". On the other hand, Vetinari could have claimed that the blank paper meant "do nothing."
I haven't reread Jingo lately. Are there independent witnesses who could testify that Vetinari sent _something_ to Vimes in an envelope marked with Vimes's full title? If so, he could point out that Vetinari had sent him an indirect order to "write his own ticket". On the other hand, Vetinari could have claimed that the blank paper meant "do nothing."
I haven't read The Three Musketeers lately, but if I recall correctly, the carte blanche is issued to Milady by the Cardinal Richlieu, rather than by Louis XIII. *shrug* Of course, I may be wrong...
The only thing we are told about the envelope is that Vimes receives it, and on the envelope is written: "Sir Samuel Vimes, Knight." Vimes receives it and thinks: what's the point of reminding me that I'm a knight? I know that embarrassing fact well enough... and from that point, he proceeds to make more trouble for Lord Rust.
The blank piece of paper always puzzled me, but it was a point that I laid aside because it didn't seem to make sense at the time - and besides, Terry's infectious style drew me to read on anyway. It could possibly be a "blank cheque" or something similar. Of course, it could just be Vetinari being characteristically inscrutable.
The only thing we are told about the envelope is that Vimes receives it, and on the envelope is written: "Sir Samuel Vimes, Knight." Vimes receives it and thinks: what's the point of reminding me that I'm a knight? I know that embarrassing fact well enough... and from that point, he proceeds to make more trouble for Lord Rust.
The blank piece of paper always puzzled me, but it was a point that I laid aside because it didn't seem to make sense at the time - and besides, Terry's infectious style drew me to read on anyway.
It could possibly be a "blank cheque" or something similar. Of course, it could just be Vetinari being characteristically inscrutable.