SPOILERS Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

[Cutandpaste]

Re the football thing...
I think it's more like the "Medieval football" game played annually on Shrove Tuesday and Ash Wednesday in the town of Ashbourne in Derbyshire, which I believe is a very ancient version of the game. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Shrovetide_Football

 

[Tonyblack]

Welcome to the site, Cutandpaste

 

[Mixa]

Wow! Thanks for sharing, Cutandpaste, and welcome to the forums!

Mx

 

[raisindot]

I'm "listening" Jingo once again (one of Planer's best readings), and one little niggling thing occurred to me.

Where were the wizards in all of this warmongering, especially in the "other trouser timeline" where AM loses the war?

Wouldn't the wizards naturally have come to the defense of AM in the event of a Klatchian invasion? Or wouldn't they have had some kind of opinion about the advisability of going to war (either adding their services to the AM battalions to aid in victory or doing something to prevent the war from coming about).

I don't think an argument that "the wizards don't involve themselves in political matters--they're there no matter who runs the city" isn't a valid one. The wizards at UU have always been deeply involved in the life of AM, and benefit from its largesse (especially their exemption from taxation). Would living under the yoke of the Klatchians preserve their status quo?

I wonder whether Pterry thought about this when he was writing the book. Of course, the story works much better without the wizards' theoretical involvement--the stakes are so much higher. I wonder whether he ever debated bringing Ridcully and company into it, or whether including wizards just never crossed his mind?

 

[Cutandpaste]

A recurring remark in our house is - "you've got the donkey up the minaret again, haven't you?".

 

[RathDarkblade]

I'm "listening" Jingo once again (one of Planer's best readings), and one little niggling thing occurred to me.

Where were the wizards in all of this warmongering, especially in the "other trouser timeline" where AM loses the war...?

Sorry, Raisin ... it looks like your question wasn't answered for over 2 years!

Obviously no-one can be sure what Pterry planned. From where I'm looking at it, though, there are already many different points-of-view in this book:

- the Vimes POV
- the Vetinari POV
- the Rust POV
- the 71-Hour Ahmed POV

...these are the major ones, but there are others too, I'm sure! So bringing in the wizards too might've been too much for Pterry to plan. Each 'character arc' is a major headache to outline (trust me, I've been doing outlines and beat sheets for several years, and it's not easy).

Granted, if your approach is to 'pants' a novel, it's much easier. But 'pantsing' a book like "Jingo" wouldn't have worked -- there are simply too many subplots to keep track of!
====================
I'm listening to Nigel Planer reading "Jingo" - and I can't stop grinning and (sometimes) flat-out laughing ... especially at the Nobby/Colon scenes. For instance:

- Nobby and Colon discuss what happens to spies -- and Leonard of Quirm tells them that you get given to the women. And Nobby doesn't mind it. LOL! (Especially given his, um ... problem).
- "Please pass me your fez, Corporal Beti."
- "Ye gods, that was better in than out, sarge!"
... and so on.

On a slightly more sombre note, some bits of the novel reminds me of stories I've read about the British Army's experiences in the Crimean War (1854-6). I don't wish to mansplain, so I'll just mention them in passing:

- the title "Jingo", a reference to a music-hall song from the time of the Crimean War:

We don't want to fight,
But by Jingo, if we do,
We have the ships,
We have the men,
We have the money, too...

... and so on.

- On Leshp, Solid Jackson and his son Les can smell that the Klatchians are baking bread, while Jackson and Les have to survive on seaweed.

IIRC, a similar thing happened in the Crimea. The British soldiers could smell the French baking bread, but British shipments of wheat were left to rot on the ships because the quartermaster didn't have the proper paperwork to release it.

Similar things happened to shipments of vegetables, fruit, tea and coffee. (Bloody red tape). Sometimes, the coffee arrived unroasted -- so the beans were still green and disgusting. Some enterprising soldiers tried to roast them in shell casings, while others simply pitched them into the mud!

Thankfully, "Jingo" has no parallels to the British field hospitals in Scutari (which Florence Nightingale did her best to improve), nor any parallels to the "British hotel" run by Mary Seacole.

- The whole "sand in his sandals" (71-hour Ahmed) dates back to the Crimean War. The joke back then was about the Russians. How will we know they're Russians? Because of the snow on their boots.

- And ... obviously ... the football match that Carrot organises. I'm sure almost everyone is aware of the Christmas Truce!
=============================
Also, raisin, you mentioned that Colon "seems to be at his worst here. In the previous books he was more of a semi-competent desk jockey but mostly inoffensive.

Here he's simply little more than a xenophobic, cowardly, stupid fool..."

It's odd. In "Men at Arms", Colon was against hiring Angua because of her gender (and against dwarfs and trolls). He is also against dwarfs and trolls in "Night Watch". Except for "Guards! Guards!", he always struck me as a "cowardly fool" (albeit one that gets his comeuppance in the end).

So, is it really such a leap for him to be xenophobic as well? Please note that he gets his comeuppance here and learns from his time in Klatch. Case in point:

- Before going to Klatch, he asks Nobby to go for a pint at The Klatchian's Head, and adds that it's "a treat".
- After returning from Klatch, he is dismissive of The Klatchian's Head, saying that the beer there is "piss".

As for what the two sides were fighting over ... the Falklands War is a good parallel, but if you want a war over a rock that has no strategic value (except fishing waters), how about the British navy seizing Rockall?

(And for those who don't remember that - Rockall might remind you, or pique your interest).

 

[=Tamar]

I sem to recall a magical storm on the way to Klatch. Maybe the wizards were doing their best, just keeping the ships from sinking. They mainly work one-on-one, and close-up. Also, a major part of the Rules is that wizard war is a Bad Thing. Remember Sourcery!

 

[RathDarkblade]

Hmm -- you're right about the storm, =Tamar, but I recall Captain Jenkin's saying that it was "St Ungulant's Fire" (a clear reference to St Elmo's Fire, a weather phenomenon involving electrical discharge that often occurs at sea around the rigging of a ship during a thunderstorm). It's odd, though - the magical fire seems to almost keep the ship on course and guide it through the storm.

By the way, =Tamar, do you agree that the purpose of Sgt Colon is to be a cowardly fool who gets the wrong ideas and then gets his comeuppance? That seems to be his lot in life. (Even the King of Arms says so in FoC, calling him a "fat idiot"). For example:

1. In MAA, Colon rails against women, dwarfs and trolls in the Watch -- and is then saved by a troll during a riot (I think - please correct me if I'm wrong).
2. In "Jingo", Colon's new target is Klatchians in general. But the Klatchians he meets either treat him kindly (e.g. the Goriff family, who send the Watch curry after Vimes saves their shop) or with condescending scorn (e.g. the people in the Klatchian pub, who tell him the Klatchian Army is in "The Place Where The Sun Shineth Not"). By the end of the book, he seems to have learned his lesson.
3. In "Feet of Clay", Colon wants to get close to nature and buy a farm -- and he nearly does "buy the farm", thanks to the King of Golems. When Dorfl confesses to the murders, Colon and Nobby jump to the wrong conclusions.
4. In "The Fifth Elephant", we see why Colon-as-an-officer wouldn't be a good idea. (I won't touch Carrot's treatment of Colon and Nobby, since I think that discussion's been done to death).
5. In "Night Watch", Colon gets yelled at by Vimes/Keel (e.g. "What will you do if a big mob does come round the corner, eh?"), so he tries his own ideas on his own initiative (e.g. moving the barricades forward). Weirdly, this seems to work.
6. In "Thud!", Colon and Nobby patrol around the richer part of town, discover the theft of the painting of Koom Valley, and jump to conclusions (again).

It's true that, in "Guards! Guards!", he is a "semi-competent desk jockey" (as raisindot put it). Still, Characterisation Marches On!

I don't think we see too much of Colon after "Thud!", but I can't remember. What do you think?

 

[raisindot]

S
Also, raisin, you mentioned that Colon "seems to be at his worst here. In the previous books he was more of a semi-competent desk jockey but mostly inoffensive.

Here he's simply little more than a xenophobic, cowardly, stupid fool..."

It's odd. In "Men at Arms", Colon was against hiring Angua because of her gender (and against dwarfs and trolls). He is also against dwarfs and trolls in "Night Watch". Except for "Guards! Guards!", he always struck me as a "cowardly fool" (albeit one that gets his comeuppance in the end).

So, is it really such a leap for him to be xenophobic as well?

Vimes, too, was also initially against hiring dwarfs and trolls for the expanded Watch but gave in when Vetinari demanded it and Carrot essentially did it. But Vimes' view evolved. Yes, Colon was also speciest and a fool, but usually at least once in the earlier novels he does one redeeming thing even if it doesn't amount to much. In Guards! Guards! he fires the "million to one" arrow at the dragon that does nothing. In Feet of Clay he stumbles into the "clue" about the candles. He does nothing of any real significance in the post-Jingo book other than being part of the Nobby/Colon B-plot comedy team. But in Jingo he's absolutely venal. The only contribution he makes is by obeying Vetinari's directive to "act like a big, fat stupid fool" during the juggling scene.

Another notice: Nobby's "exotic dancer" name is Betty. In Thud!, the birth name of Tawnee, the real exotic dancer, is Betty. Pterry liked repeating jokes.

 

[raisindot]

I don't think we see too much of Colon after "Thud!", but I can't remember. What do you think?

Colon in general has very few redeeming qualities. He is the metaphor for the old, out-of-date, bigoted, provincial, stupid "should've been put out to pasture long ago" cop who's a common type in police procedurals.

Through dialogue and actions, Pterry's "opinions" about the relative worth of characters does evolve over time, particularly in the Watch novels. Colon never seems to escape his contempt, even as a younger cop in Night Watch. Carrot starts out on an narrative arc that might have been him the the "future leader" of the Watch, but as the series evolves his role becomes diminished and often discredit as it's made clear that Vimes is the leader and protagonist of the Watch. Detritus's "room temperature" intelligence, leadership qualities and grasp of politics increase with every novel and peaks with Thud!, where he teaches Vimes a lesson or two about cultural sensitivity and giving people second chances.

Colon's arc, however, trends steadily downward. Other than a cameo in Raising Steam, his last part in a Watch novel is to get enchanted by a Unggue pot in Snuff!, the resolution of which ends his bigotry toward goblins.

 

[raisindot]

I sem to recall a magical storm on the way to Klatch. Maybe the wizards were doing their best, just keeping the ships from sinking. They mainly work one-on-one, and close-up. Also, a major part of the Rules is that wizard war is a Bad Thing. Remember Sourcery!

That scene never made a lot of sense to me. Maybe it was a reference to a similar storm in another book? I always thought that some god or another was responsible for making it happen. Maybe the same sea god that nearly destroyed the Omnian ship in Small Gods after Orbis forced the captain to kill a dolphin.

 

[Tonyblack]

As I recall it was a sea god. Om begged the deity to spare Brutha.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Hmm ... your posts about Colon are interesting, raisin, since I never looked at Colon that way. Just like Nobby steals and skives but isn't really bad, Colon is a foolish speciesist but isn't evil - definitely not in the same way that e.g. the Rusts (both father and son) are. He's ignorant, but people can learn. Colon, of course, is a very slow learner.

I'm prepared to indulge Colon because I know that he will get his comeuppance. *G* Besides, he makes Nobby look good by comparison, and Nobby hardly gets a chance to look good at all.

You're right, I forgot the Colon-and-unggue-pot scenes in "Snuff". I took that as a possible resolution for his character arc -- that perhaps he could finally evolve as a character? *shrug* It's worth a try. (Of course, if he does evolve, he'd no longer be a 'stupid fat idiot'!)

What do you think?

 

[raisindot]

Colon is a foolish speciesist but isn't evil - definitely not in the same way that e.g. the Rusts (both father and son) are.

Colon isn't evil in the way, say, Carcer and Stratford were evil. He's just generally unlikable. Pterry tries to give him good qualities (i.e., in saying how Vimes' trusts Colon's "water" for sensing what's going on in the street) but overall he's mostly dead weight.

Lord Rust isn't necessarily evil--like Colon, he's ignorant and stupid, xenophobic and also elitist and contemptible. Everything he does is driven by a desire to return control of Ankh Morpork to the control of the monarchy ruled by the aristocracy. He honestly believes that Vetinari is not good the city--or at least for his own class of people. But, even in his warped way, he believes his intentions are honorable. Unlike, say, Lord De Worde in The Truth, who is Lord Rust on steroids and is truly evil.

But Pterry treats Lord Rust rather kindly in Snuff. By that time, Rust is an invalid and Vimes has more sympathy than contempt for him, even though Ronnie has blessed his son's involvement with smuggling and goblin slavery. Given Rust's innate bigotry (and the fact that goblins were not considered to be sentient being worthy of right until the end of Snuff) his behavior is understandable, although not acceptable.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Hmm ... I think Colon is once described as "an ancient street monster", which is an apt description. I'm not saying that he's a good person -- far from it -- but as we see in "Snuff", he can learn and change (at least a little).

There's also the fact that Colon probably saw some of the worst things in A-M (i.e. what was left of the people that the Cable Street Unmentionables "spoke to", during NW). Not long after that, he also witnessed the death of several colleagues (during the siege of Treacle Mine Road). That'd haunt anyone. Plus, he then went off to war and saw action in at least two regiments ... so, I think it's safe to say that he has undiagnosed shell-shock. (I refuse to use the term PTSD, sorry).

Of course, most of the Watch at the time of NW also saw the same things. Not everyone went off to war, so at least there's that. *shrug* None of that excuses or defends Colon's less likeable qualities, of course ... but given what he's been through, and the fact of his not-exactly-happy marriage, I'm prepared to cut him some slack. *shrug*

I put Lord Rust in the "evil" category not just because of his ignorance, xenophobia or sneering elitism. The fact that, again and again, he says that some people are worth less than others ... that just crosses the line for me, sorry.

in Jingo, for instance, Rust does almost everything wrong as a military commander: no logistical preparation, no reconnaissance of the enemy position ... but, on top of that, he's prepared to throw people's lives away because he's the commander. That reminds me of Lord Hong in IT, but at least Lord Hong is competent (as well as utterly insane). Lord Rust, on the other hand, is both insane and incompetent -- which is even more dangerous.

 

[Woofb]

There's a DW continuity lapse.

In Jingo they play proper football with goal posts and an inflatable pig's bladder.

Yet in UA the game of football is totally different.

Still, along with Pyramids, one of my fave books.

There's a reason for this, even though I know sod-all about football.

The game Carrot plays, with his preternatural niceness, is making a point about the brief truces during wars, and is a quick kickabout using available materials (I'd have expected the well-known "jumpers for goalposts", but finding goalposts is another Carrot miracle) One of the things about that is that Carrot (who can also use his girlfriend as an Akela for a wolf-howl) can create miracles of niceness among street thugs and opposing armies. They don't have to last long. They merely have to last long enough.

Jingo is an issue novel for Empire-building, if late '90s, possibly written around and about a Gulf war, where the Arabs vs Western Europe/North America was a bit of a thing because of oil rich sheikhs etc. Just before 11 September 2001 when the Ultimate Threat for the West turned decisively from eg the Iron Curtain and armies in Official Wars (in Official Countries, war-torn, but not actuallyto shadowy figures with a bomb in a backpack who might kick trouble right back home to America. PTerry neatly points out that you don't have to like different people, but war's a net loss to everyone. (racism etc: both sides end up balancing realpolitik (not just Vetinari as usual). Particularly like 71-hour Ahmed proving to be Vimes' counterpart: "Five thousand miles from anywhere the law is me". There's a chilling Kipling poem (Kipling isn't half as racist as people think) called "Hadramauti", taking the viewpoint that if you come to Arabia and make a drunken, dangerous, impious show of yourself offending guest-right, you won't see him creep out in the night and kill you. That's 71-hour Ahmed.

UA is an issue novel for modem rugby or football, how it arose from violent hooligan-led games in the street. Gorgeous "daguerrotype" cover (I think Kidby is a better artist compositionally and for being able to show--oh, that's Vetinari in a football shirt, that's Jools, that's Gladys, Rincewind and the Luggage (no, of course Rincewind would run away from the game and the Luggage wouldn't use its menacing feet to kick)' there's Mr Nutt, etc.)

Pleasures include the Patrician getting seriously drunk while no less Machiavellian, the wizards' squabbling (the Dean's new college isn't "Brasenose" as in Oxford but "Brazeneck" for "brass neck="utter cheek?), Mad Adrian Turnipseed discovering Pex might not be an ideal upgrade, football chants as plainsong, the sustained joke about Evans the Striped's possessed whistle which gives poor Ponder particularly flashbacks about being the weedy one who has to play in his pants, and the occasional football joke even I can get, I think there's a Maradona one and there's definitely "They think it's all over" twice.

 

[Tonyblack]

I agree, Woofb. There is a timeline to the Discworld stories, but that doesn't matter when Terry wanted to use a topic to highlight a story. As someone who also doesn't give a hoot for football (or any other sports), I was pleased with the fact that UA had very little to do with football and more to do with tribalism - but that's more to do with UA.

In Jingo it was part of the nostalgic and jingoistic themes of the story.

Woofb, can you please try to keep on the topic of these discussions - new people may not have read UA and it could lead to spoilers? I nearly got into it myself just now lol. This can generally be avoided by posting comments about other books with spoiler warnings.

 

[Molokov]

As Terry has once said "There are no continuity errors in Discworld, merely alternate pasts". Of course, several years after saying this he wrote "Thief of Time" which does kind of explain away any continuity errors - history has been smashed a few times and the History Monks have had to piece it back together.

 

[Tonyblack]

As Terry has once said "There are no continuity errors in Discworld, merely alternate pasts".

Thank you! I was trying to remember the quote, but kept running up against Kelly-Ann Conway's "alternative facts" comment.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Terry Pratchett and Kelly-Ann Conway are not equivalent in any way. *makes a mock-angry face* =P