Just finished...
- Thread starter BaldFriede
- Start date
Well, I was left in no doubt that Tonkers and Lofty were definitely together, with whatever that implies.
Whereas when I watched Thelma and Louise I didn't get any sexual relationship between them at all. They were best friends, nothing more.
I have a best friend - but I don't fancy her, and the relationship between us is very different from the relationship between me and my dh. She's more like a sister.
Whereas when I watched Thelma and Louise I didn't get any sexual relationship between them at all. They were best friends, nothing more.
I have a best friend - but I don't fancy her, and the relationship between us is very different from the relationship between me and my dh. She's more like a sister.
I had no doubt about their togetherness either. But that does only technically make them lesbians, in contrast to me. I feel generally attracted by women and not by men. So I am definitely a lesbian. But I don't get that feeling about Lofty and Tonker; their lesbianism is arbitrary. And that was what disappointed me a bit. We still haven'rt seen any real homosexual person, which be definition is generally attracted by people of the same sex, in one of Pratchett's books. Lofty and Tonker are not a couple becausde they are both on the lookout for women and met each other; they are a couple because they wsere together under extreme circumstances and found solace in each other. That they were of the same sex is abitrary.
Exactly Pip - the Tonkers/Lofty dynamic is the most complex one within the squad that's all.
If there's one common theme for MR it is about love in adversity, specifically in terms of war and in Borogravia everyone is fighting on all fronts in essence and whether or not they're in the Army or have been or will be.
The only other issue is care in the Jackrum sense for her recruits and then for the fledgling squad, but all the girls care and love for each other in common and have more intense loving/caring relationships from the very superficial - Maladicta for her coffee; to the very profound/insane - Maladicta and her coffee...
With the squad aside from Jackrum you have that quintessential war theme of 'put 'em through hell and they'll turn out soldiers' but more importantly friends ,who work together and support each other. This is the real core of Lofty and Tonkers bonding - they have already gone through hell, as has the other workhouse girl whose name has completely deserted me, but you know I mean...
They have been virtually destroyed by all kinds of abuse and so Tonkers and Lofty are more than lovers effectively - they are co-dependent to a very high degree where gender doesn't matter and it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't physical lovers at all. Very often sexual abuse means a total withdrawal of an individual personality to the point that any physical interaction with anyTHING is utterly meaningless - not even abhorrent.
For the other poor little girl, she has retreated into madness and hallucination with the Duchess as a vaguely sympathetic but just as dysfunctional and needy alternative 'reality' into which she's retreated so she has some frail, but essentially sustainable cocoon to preserve what sanity and vitality she has left to her. Similarly, when we first see Tonkers and Lofty they are death-seeking essentially, truly disturbed and bonded to each other so tightly that they're sharing a personality and nourishing each other literally to survive, knowing there's nowhere else they can go.
I've never liked MR and I never will, because of this deconstruction of a nations total disintegration in almost every respect. It's a truly great and insightful book and mercifully indistinct in places. Through work I've seen demolished people like those 3 girls and so it's totally possible. Tonkers loves Lofty and Lofty loves Tonkers any way they're capable of, in essence because they're all they have.
If there's one common theme for MR it is about love in adversity, specifically in terms of war and in Borogravia everyone is fighting on all fronts in essence and whether or not they're in the Army or have been or will be.
The only other issue is care in the Jackrum sense for her recruits and then for the fledgling squad, but all the girls care and love for each other in common and have more intense loving/caring relationships from the very superficial - Maladicta for her coffee; to the very profound/insane - Maladicta and her coffee...
With the squad aside from Jackrum you have that quintessential war theme of 'put 'em through hell and they'll turn out soldiers' but more importantly friends ,who work together and support each other. This is the real core of Lofty and Tonkers bonding - they have already gone through hell, as has the other workhouse girl whose name has completely deserted me, but you know I mean...
They have been virtually destroyed by all kinds of abuse and so Tonkers and Lofty are more than lovers effectively - they are co-dependent to a very high degree where gender doesn't matter and it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't physical lovers at all. Very often sexual abuse means a total withdrawal of an individual personality to the point that any physical interaction with anyTHING is utterly meaningless - not even abhorrent. For the other poor little girl, she has retreated into madness and hallucination with the Duchess as a vaguely sympathetic but just as dysfunctional and needy alternative 'reality' into which she's retreated so she has some frail, but essentially sustainable cocoon to preserve what sanity and vitality she has left to her. Similarly, when we first see Tonkers and Lofty they are death-seeking essentially, truly disturbed and bonded to each other so tightly that they're sharing a personality and nourishing each other literally to survive, knowing there's nowhere else they can go.
I've never liked MR and I never will, because of this deconstruction of a nations total disintegration in almost every respect. It's a truly great and insightful book and mercifully indistinct in places. Through work I've seen demolished people like those 3 girls and so it's totally possible. Tonkers loves Lofty and Lofty loves Tonkers any way they're capable of, in essence because they're all they have.
Just a small point - it's 'Tonker' not "Tonkers".
I see the relationship between the girls as something like that between Idgie and Ruth in Fried Green Tomatoes at the Whistle Stop Cafe. It's implied that they are lovers as well as friends, but it's not explicit.
Whether they are lesbians or close friends who a close and loving relationship isn't clear.
I see the relationship between the girls as something like that between Idgie and Ruth in Fried Green Tomatoes at the Whistle Stop Cafe. It's implied that they are lovers as well as friends, but it's not explicit.
Whether they are lesbians or close friends who a close and loving relationship isn't clear.
Gotta ask: Isn't "lesbian" or "homosexual" just a label that straight people applied to those who weren't heterosexual and that, thought most of modern history, has been pejorative until these labels were turned into labels of pride in the last 30 years of so?
I say that because in ancient times there were plenty of Greeks and Romans who had same-sex relationships and no one thought anything of it. They didn't use labels because a person's sexual practices didn't matter--it was considered to be completely 'normal.' It was only until the Judeo-Christian tradition came in an demonized these practices that these terms were invented to identify those are practitioners of acts that were considered "sinful.'
On the DW, presumably such distinctions have never been established either.
Tonker and Lofty don't classify themselves as "lesbians," because they're not even aware that what they're doing could possibly be considered sinful. In their country, two women having a sexual or loving relationship isn't necessarily sinful (we really don't know). It's far more of a sin for a woman to be a soldier.
J-I-B
I say that because in ancient times there were plenty of Greeks and Romans who had same-sex relationships and no one thought anything of it. They didn't use labels because a person's sexual practices didn't matter--it was considered to be completely 'normal.' It was only until the Judeo-Christian tradition came in an demonized these practices that these terms were invented to identify those are practitioners of acts that were considered "sinful.'
On the DW, presumably such distinctions have never been established either.
Tonker and Lofty don't classify themselves as "lesbians," because they're not even aware that what they're doing could possibly be considered sinful. In their country, two women having a sexual or loving relationship isn't necessarily sinful (we really don't know). It's far more of a sin for a woman to be a soldier.
J-I-B
I totally agree Jeff. This to me ties in with what Terry writes about race from Nanny and Rincewind's point of view. Don't care what colour a person is, if they're holding a sword, run! Nanny's views on the voodoo witch in WA. Also this is a world where the real dilemma is ' what will people think of me if I marry this nice werewolf?' It would be nice if it was one of those those things that was just a given, like how most people of any sexuality would like to be accepted rather than stand out.
A bit of a generalisation on male male relationships in Greece. In some cases true but in many cases not so.
For example in Sparta most of these relationships developed in the training camps between boys and men of similar ages .
Its a generalisation above based on Athenian upperclass society rather than ANcient Greece in general and even the word PAedophilia was coined much later from the greek language.
For example in Sparta most of these relationships developed in the training camps between boys and men of similar ages .
Its a generalisation above based on Athenian upperclass society rather than ANcient Greece in general and even the word PAedophilia was coined much later from the greek language.
I thought the paed prefix means child anyway not boys specifically - paediatrics, paedophile, and for parents peed-off (just lightening up here folks ). It's age-derived not gender-based - if it's anything at all so far as the Spartans were concerned it was cultural and nothing much to do with the act of sex as such.
The word lesbian is based on Lesbos, the island of women where Achilles was brought up allegedly and presumably why he got such a hard time in the warrior host, 'cos he wasn't brought up to the male-buddy system presumably - but hey the guy was a demi-god anyway so who cares, he could kick ass just fine, but had a weak ankle... My point is how Greek can you get?
It's just a description and, as we're all saying, nothing to do with the storyline much.
). It's age-derived not gender-based - if it's anything at all so far as the Spartans were concerned it was cultural and nothing much to do with the act of sex as such.The word lesbian is based on Lesbos, the island of women where Achilles was brought up allegedly and presumably why he got such a hard time in the warrior host, 'cos he wasn't brought up to the male-buddy system presumably - but hey the guy was a demi-god anyway so who cares, he could kick ass just fine, but had a weak ankle...
My point is how Greek can you get? It's just a description and, as we're all saying, nothing to do with the storyline much.
If mine was a generelisation yours is a simplification Pf course even the Ilias has a famos male homoerotic relazionship (Achilles and Patroklos), but I doon't remember what word Homer used to describe that relationship. I will have to check (which will be horrible for me; I have forgotten most of ancient Greek. I had to learn it for my studies, as well as Latin, but I hardly remember any of it).
your point proves mine as neither Achilles nor Patroklos were young boys.
Mine was not a simplification as i pointed that there is many froms and chose one as a highlight.
Homer doesn't use a given term for the relationship , similar to Terrys approach. Again subtlety can be a great tool for highlighting it .
Mine was not a simplification as i pointed that there is many froms and chose one as a highlight.
Homer doesn't use a given term for the relationship , similar to Terrys approach. Again subtlety can be a great tool for highlighting it .
For the female equivalent it is interesting that it appears that Momer's ode on Demeter has been tampered with regarding the relationship between Hecate and Kore, who was later named Persephone. My view on the whole Persephone myth is that she and Hecate became lovers. Since Persephone had eaten the pomegrasnate seed she could not leave Hades forever anymore, and part of the deal Hades got out of letting her return for a few months yearly is that she posed as his wife, though actually there waas no sexual relationship between the two. Interestingly the marriage between them has no offspring, which seems to prove my point. The real lovers were Hecate and Persephone.
'Then bright-coiffed Hecate came near to them, and often did she embrace the daughter of holy Demeter: and from that time the lady Hecate was minister and companion to Persephone.' Hymn to Demeter (439-441)
This could be read that way but its difficult to attch modern concepts to ancient texts as symbolism and ideas have changed completely.
A good example is the use of colours in the original greek text of Homer contrasting completely with both modern greek and english ideas and use of colour.
This could be read that way but its difficult to attch modern concepts to ancient texts as symbolism and ideas have changed completely.
A good example is the use of colours in the original greek text of Homer contrasting completely with both modern greek and english ideas and use of colour.
Going back to an earlier bit of the discussion I would say Pratchett generally avoids the sexual side of relationships and identity, about the only person who seems to consider it in any detail is Nobby (is it in Jingo?)
Given that it's difficult to say more than maybe/maybe not for whether Tonker and Lofty have a physical relationship as well as their obvious emotional bond.
Given that it's difficult to say more than maybe/maybe not for whether Tonker and Lofty have a physical relationship as well as their obvious emotional bond.
