Just finished...

[raisindot]

If mine was a generelisation yours is a simplification Pf course even the Ilias has a famos male homoerotic relazionship (Achilles and Patroklos), but I doon't remember what word Homer used to describe that relationship. I will have to check (which will be horrible for me; I have forgotten most of ancient Greek. I had to learn it for my studies, as well as Latin, but I hardly remember any of it).

Not knowing a word of Greek, I'll defer to your research.

However, I have read numerous translations of The Illiad. And while there are plenty of adjectives used to describe the characters ('warriors,' 'heroes') or aspects of their personalities (think of all the adjectives used to describe Odysseus), I recall not one ever referring to Achilles as a "boy-loving man" or Patrolos as "adult man-loving boy." Since this behavior was considered completely normal in Homer's era (and probably up until Christian times) there was no need to describe either the act of the nature of the relationship.

These labels only become relevant when people wanted to start portraying them as anything other than 'normal.'

J-I-B

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Like I was saying - Achilles was brought up in Lesbos to warrior adulthood by women and didn't have the exposure to Spartan culture. From extremely hazy memory (I much prefer the Odyssey) the only reference to Achilles' sexuality was something about a massive row over a slave girl and Hector killing his best friend - which Achilles was a tad miffed about and literally knocked the stuffing out of Hector pulling him along on the back of his chariot a few times around Troy...?

He might have been bi-sexual but that's not what he's best-known for is it?

Tonker loves Lofty. Lofty loves Tonker - they may or may not have sex but that qualifies them as lesbian/in a same sex relationship by romantic definition whatever else Terry intends us to think about it.

 

[Sjoerd3000]

Didn't Achilles fell in love with the Amazone queen? Her name starts with a P I look it up He kills her though, not a nice fellow Achilles

 

[BaldFriede]

Like I was saying - Achilles was brought up in Lesbos to warrior adulthood by women and didn't have the exposure to Spartan culture. From extremely hazy memory (I much prefer the Odyssey) the only reference to Achilles' sexuality was something about a massive row over a slave girl and Hector killing his best friend - which Achilles was a tad miffed about and literally knocked the stuffing out of Hector pulling him along on the back of his chariot a few times around Troy...?

He might have been bi-sexual but that's not what he's best-known for is it?

Tonker loves Lofty. Lofty loves Tonker - they may or may not have sex but that qualifies them as lesbian/in a same sex relationship by romantic definition whatever else Terry intends us to think about it.

I think Patroklos, or Patroclus, whatever you prefer, was more than just best friend to Achilles. But that debate has been going on for ages. Just look at this wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles_and_Patroclus

 

[Sjoerd3000]

It was Penthesilea

It's been a while since I've read the Iliad, so this is from wiki:

He mocks her corpse until he removes her helmet. At this point, Achilles is so moved by Penthesilea's beauty that he feels intense pity and sadness because he wishes that he could have married her.

He just thought she was a looker, then

 

[BaldJean]

It was Penthesilea

It's been a while since I've read the Iliad, so this is from wiki:

He mocks her corpse until he removes her helmet. At this point, Achilles is so moved by Penthesilea's beauty that he feels intense pity and sadness because he wishes that he could have married her.

He just thought she was a looker, then

It was Penthesilea

It's been a while since I've read the Iliad, so this is from wiki:

He mocks her corpse until he removes her helmet. At this point, Achilles is so moved by Penthesilea's beauty that he feels intense pity and sadness because he wishes that he could have married her.

He just thought she was a looker, then

The whole wrath of Achilles is all about Menelaos requiring a female slave of Achilles, Briseis, for himself.
Of course the Penthesilea episode also happens.

 

[Sjoerd3000]

Just being pedantic, sorry

But it was Agamemnon who demanded Briseis from Achilles

 

[BaldJean]

Just being pedantic, sorry

But it was Agamemnon who demanded Briseis from Achilles

Of course, sorry. Don't know why I mixed that up.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

So he was bi! PMSL

 

[pip]

The point everyone is missing is they are trying to fit into modern terms and categories characters from books and texts 2,500 to 3,000 years old.
gay , lesbian bisexual are more modern concepts and would be alien terms to the ancient Greek. Its a common mistake as the texts from greece have aged well. but they are the product of a different time and way of thinking.
They didn't define sexuality . They didn't feel the need to.

 

[BaldJean]

The point everyone is missing is they are trying to fit into modern terms and categories characters from books and texts 2,500 to 3,000 years old.
gay , lesbian bisexual are more modern concepts and would be alien terms to the ancient Greek. Its a common mistake as the texts from greece have aged well. but they are the product of a different time and way of thinking.
They didn't define sexuality . They didn't feel the need to.

I am not trying to fit them into such concepts at all. I am an historian (well, at least I have a degree in historyy, even if I don't work in that field) and I specialized in ancient, so I am very well aware of what you are saying.
The ancient Greek, by the way, had a very rich sexual vocabulaty; the names for all kinds of "perversions" (mark the quote signs) are all Greek - algolagnia, dacryphilia, phoinikizein, podophilia, even nasophilia - just think of something, and they had a name for it.
"Phoinikizein" is a very interesting term, by the way. Literally it means "the way the Phoenicians do it" and thus appears to have been used as a derogatory term. My spouse Friede wrote a short story in which one of the characters refers to that sexual practice as "phony kissin' ", which I consider to be great wordplay.

 

[pip]

The point everyone is missing is they are trying to fit into modern terms and categories characters from books and texts 2,500 to 3,000 years old.
gay , lesbian bisexual are more modern concepts and would be alien terms to the ancient Greek. Its a common mistake as the texts from greece have aged well. but they are the product of a different time and way of thinking.
They didn't define sexuality . They didn't feel the need to.

I am not trying to fit them into such concepts at all. I am an historian (well, at least I have a degree in historyy, even if I don't work in that field) and I specialized in ancient, so I am very well aware of what you are saying.
The ancient Greek, by the way, had a very rich sexual vocabulaty; the names for all kinds of "perversions" (mark the uoter signs) are all Greek - algolagnia, dacryphilia, phoinikizein, podophilia, even nasophilia - just think of something, and they had a name for it.
"Phoinikizein" is a very interesting term, by the way. Literally it means "the way the Phoenicians do it" and thus appears to have been used as a derogatory term. My spouse Friede wrote a short story in which one of the characters refers to that sexual practice as "phony kissin' ", which I consider to be great wordplay.

They were an interesting group of people in all there ways. I had the fun of a degree in Classics as well and the approach to life would definitely open your eyes .

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

What is it they say? There are only 7 stories and the Greeks had them all covered.

All art is pointless and regurgitated

 

[BaldFriede]

... reading "The Truth". I liked the outside view of the watch, which we also get in "Monstrous Regiment". Just loved how William de Worde "figured out" who the werewolf is. "We don't often talk about Corporal Nobbs's species. (...) I would deem it a small favour if you would take the same appproach". That's a really good one.

 

[Tonyblack]

I like The Truth a lot.

 

[Turtles4Ever]

..... re-reading I Shall Wear Midnight. Lovely book, it seemed more 'cohesive' to me the second time around.

9/10

 

[deldaisy]

I don't often read books a second time... but I find that DW books are well worth a second read... there is so much to read into... so much refers to other books.. and its always so enjoyable coming across a pun or joke that made me laugh the first time.

Sometimes I find that reading one book a second time can prompt me to read another book again too, because of the cross references.

One day I shall start from the beginning and read them all from the first to the last... IN ORDER.

 

[The Mad Collector]

I'm currently working through the whole series but backwards I've got back as far as The Truth and know that eventually Sam Vimes will just be another drunk. It gives a whole new and somewhat odd view of the series

 

[Tonyblack]

A second, third and many more reads. The DW books are infinitely re-readable.

 

[deldaisy]

I'm currently working through the whole series but backwards I've got back as far as The Truth and know that eventually Sam Vimes will just be another drunk. It gives a whole new and somewhat odd view of the series

Oh yeah Mad... know where you are coming from hun. I play my wedding video backwards....

I back up the aisle... jump in the limo with my girlfriends and bugger off