SPOILERS Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
I've been too busy to keep up with this, but I'll try and find the time to read what's been written at some stage. 
As far as I can tell, the fact that the Glooper kept leaking water all the time was indicative that the Lavishes were helping themselves. The gold reserve in the Glooper may indeed have shown empty, as the vault was, but who was going to believe Igor and Hubert? What I want to know is what happened when the gold went back to the vault. Presumably all the gold that had been taken out had been used in various ways, including jewellery and (gods forbid) dental fillings. I assume all that disappeared.
As to GP and MM. GP had, at its heart, a story of self discovery. Moist learned that not only was he not a bad person, but that it was far more rewarding to help people than to take their gold. The letter he delivered to the grocer came as a surprise to him because he made people happy by doing his job.
Making Money is missing that voyage of discovery - Moist doesn't particularly grow, his relationship with Spike doesn't develop. Part of the charm of GP was their developing relationship. In MM, Terry even separates them to try to make the story work. But the book (to me) starts to fall to pieces when Spike returns to the city. I was quite enjoying it up until then.
Making Money has good ideas and some really funny bits, but as a whole it just falls flat. I actually find parts of it extremely annoying - but more on that later.
As far as I can tell, the fact that the Glooper kept leaking water all the time was indicative that the Lavishes were helping themselves. The gold reserve in the Glooper may indeed have shown empty, as the vault was, but who was going to believe Igor and Hubert? What I want to know is what happened when the gold went back to the vault. Presumably all the gold that had been taken out had been used in various ways, including jewellery and (gods forbid) dental fillings.
I assume all that disappeared.As to GP and MM. GP had, at its heart, a story of self discovery. Moist learned that not only was he not a bad person, but that it was far more rewarding to help people than to take their gold. The letter he delivered to the grocer came as a surprise to him because he made people happy by doing his job.
Making Money is missing that voyage of discovery - Moist doesn't particularly grow, his relationship with Spike doesn't develop. Part of the charm of GP was their developing relationship. In MM, Terry even separates them to try to make the story work. But the book (to me) starts to fall to pieces when Spike returns to the city.
I was quite enjoying it up until then. Making Money has good ideas and some really funny bits, but as a whole it just falls flat. I actually find parts of it extremely annoying - but more on that later.
Wow! These discussions really do get quite intellectual!
I enjoyed the monetary and socialogical aspects of this and I thought there were some fantastic stand out scenes.
I loved the scenes with the traders and trying to get them to use the paper money and them still asking if the gold was save. Its the kind of thing I could see happening when paper money first came in to circulation in reality. In face it is almost a satirical way of looking at the British reaction to the Euro being introduce "Oooo... pretty and easy, but now where is our real money".
I liked the glooper and the way it reflected the society and where money. I actually like more time should have been spent on the character Herbert as I think the "Mad Genius" character is perfect to fit in with the Discworld and its slightly exaggerated take on reality. It's an intellect that isn't someone at the UU and I quite like it.
Moist is Moist. I don't know whetehr I love him or I hate him to be honest. He is definately a lovable rogue but its all in how he is portrayed in the book and the way we are told things. When you take a step back and actually look at what he has done and is continuing to do then he isn't so lovable after all. It is just another scam, another face that he hsa put on, another way that he has gotten people to put trust in him.
Hmmm... I'm gonna go have a think if there is anything else I want to say
I enjoyed the monetary and socialogical aspects of this and I thought there were some fantastic stand out scenes.
I loved the scenes with the traders and trying to get them to use the paper money and them still asking if the gold was save. Its the kind of thing I could see happening when paper money first came in to circulation in reality. In face it is almost a satirical way of looking at the British reaction to the Euro being introduce "Oooo... pretty and easy, but now where is our real money".
I liked the glooper and the way it reflected the society and where money. I actually like more time should have been spent on the character Herbert as I think the "Mad Genius" character is perfect to fit in with the Discworld and its slightly exaggerated take on reality. It's an intellect that isn't someone at the UU and I quite like it.
Moist is Moist. I don't know whetehr I love him or I hate him to be honest. He is definately a lovable rogue but its all in how he is portrayed in the book and the way we are told things. When you take a step back and actually look at what he has done and is continuing to do then he isn't so lovable after all. It is just another scam, another face that he hsa put on, another way that he has gotten people to put trust in him.
Hmmm... I'm gonna go have a think if there is anything else I want to say
Don't worry - it'll deteriorate into a slanging match eventually Actually this probably won't unless Jeff starts putting some proper effort into trying to convince me that not only is Moist a lovable rogue but better for AM than Vetinari :twisted:
But on the other hand let's start now...
Jeff - did either of your parents ever sit you down and explain how you get a society started - Nothing to do with echo-gnomics - you need several people to need an economy, so it won't just happen without people.
Dotsie - interesting point on Neanderthals, but they have not been proven to not know about art of some kind. Neanderthals have not been proven to be bad communicators (soft tissue like vocal chords tends not to fossilise too well ) and anyway, who says they had to communicate vocally? What they have been proven to be capable of is living communally and co-operatively as they more than survived during the last Ice Age in a wholly hostile environment - they could not have done that without being able to adapt and part of that would have demanded the ability to work together socially to provide food/shelter/protection etc. As for art - well again pigments at sites where their remains or tools have been found so possibly they used that ritually on their bodies or in ways that could not have been preserved.
Theatre comes in many forms - Discworld being magic got moving pictures too soon (and the Dungeon Dimensions got their last big moment on a main stage). AM already had the Dysk, which also hasn't had a mention since - but it's still on the Mappe of Ankh-Morpork (in the booklet). I still haven't read the Amazing Maurice etc, but wasn't music involved in that? Just because Terry's not writing about it, doesn't mean it's not there, just that there's no reason for it to be in that book. Possibly the Dwarf fashion industry will never be mentioned again? Do they have 'foot the ball' in ISWM? In SM Music with Rocks In was expelled when Imp/Buddy was sent off to Quirm and the chipshop and the guitar was sent back into the cosmos to find it's way to 'somewhere else'. :twisted:
Terry spends a lot of time on AM simpy because it is THE place on Discworld - always has been, always will, because it's got so much narrativum/dynamism/fiestiness/chutzpah/front it can't ever be ignored or sidelined. It already IS the centre of civilisation on the main continent of the Disc - it was in CoM, despite some competition from the Agatean Empire which was eventually shot down in Interesting Times; and also from Krull which Terry got bored with by LF. The only other place that comes close to becoming a living breathing dynamic metropolis is Genua, but that was a 'one book deal' too. The Sto Plains, Ephebe, Quirm are also-rans, or has-beens; Omnia , Uberwald and Copper Mountain have more prominence, but really mostly serve to have people who come to AM from there. Lancre - once a contender perhaps, but far too small to be a serious threat.
Terry's giving his city-state the depth it has to have to exist plausibly. Magic has very little to do with it now, aside from enabling 'magical' species to become citizens and so yes, it needs an economy because it has to have one to function now, but the economic/industrial nature is there to support the social conditions which a city AM would have. De Worde still crops up a fair bit, but that's because society needs high class gossip
I'll get onto the social niches/class system another time
Actually this probably won't unless Jeff starts putting some proper effort into trying to convince me that not only is Moist a lovable rogue but better for AM than Vetinari :twisted: But on the other hand let's start now...
Jeff - did either of your parents ever sit you down and explain how you get a society started -
Nothing to do with echo-gnomics - you need several people to need an economy, so it won't just happen without people.Dotsie - interesting point on Neanderthals, but they have not been proven to not know about art of some kind. Neanderthals have not been proven to be bad communicators (soft tissue like vocal chords tends not to fossilise too well
) and anyway, who says they had to communicate vocally? What they have been proven to be capable of is living communally and co-operatively as they more than survived during the last Ice Age in a wholly hostile environment - they could not have done that without being able to adapt and part of that would have demanded the ability to work together socially to provide food/shelter/protection etc. As for art - well again pigments at sites where their remains or tools have been found so possibly they used that ritually on their bodies or in ways that could not have been preserved.Theatre comes in many forms - Discworld being magic got moving pictures too soon (and the Dungeon Dimensions got their last big moment on a main stage). AM already had the Dysk, which also hasn't had a mention since - but it's still on the Mappe of Ankh-Morpork (in the booklet). I still haven't read the Amazing Maurice etc, but wasn't music involved in that? Just because Terry's not writing about it, doesn't mean it's not there, just that there's no reason for it to be in that book. Possibly the Dwarf fashion industry will never be mentioned again? Do they have 'foot the ball' in ISWM? In SM Music with Rocks In was expelled when Imp/Buddy was sent off to Quirm and the chipshop and the guitar was sent back into the cosmos to find it's way to 'somewhere else'. :twisted:
Terry spends a lot of time on AM simpy because it is THE place on Discworld - always has been, always will, because it's got so much narrativum/dynamism/fiestiness/chutzpah/front it can't ever be ignored or sidelined. It already IS the centre of civilisation on the main continent of the Disc - it was in CoM, despite some competition from the Agatean Empire which was eventually shot down in Interesting Times; and also from Krull which Terry got bored with by LF. The only other place that comes close to becoming a living breathing dynamic metropolis is Genua, but that was a 'one book deal' too. The Sto Plains, Ephebe, Quirm are also-rans, or has-beens; Omnia , Uberwald and Copper Mountain have more prominence, but really mostly serve to have people who come to AM from there. Lancre - once a contender perhaps, but far too small to be a serious threat.
Terry's giving his city-state the depth it has to have to exist plausibly. Magic has very little to do with it now, aside from enabling 'magical' species to become citizens and so yes, it needs an economy because it has to have one to function now, but the economic/industrial nature is there to support the social conditions which a city AM would have. De Worde still crops up a fair bit, but that's because society needs high class gossip
I'll get onto the social niches/class system another time
Jan Van Quirm said:
Jeff - did either of your parents ever sit you down and explain how you get a society started - Nothing to do with echo-gnomics - you need several people to need an economy, so it won't just happen without people.
Nothing to do with echo-gnomics - you need several people to need an economy, so it won't just happen without people.
And, in any case, nothing that you've said STILL in any way makes the case that Pterry was consciously creating a full, fleshed out depiction of AM in the earlier books. AM was a backdrop, but the stories could have taken place anywhere on the disk. AM just happened to be most suited for them.
But feel free to keep going, because I have the feeling that MM isn't going to be one of the "high volume" discussions (my goal is at least for it to pass the number of messages in the COM discussion).
J-I-B
poohcarrot said:
The point in time where A-M starts the economic progress (that J-I*b has been going on about) is quite easy to pinpoint.
It's in the first chapter of "Colour of Magic" when Twoflower introdues the concept of insurance.
It's in the first chapter of "Colour of Magic" when Twoflower introdues the concept of insurance.
I can say this with authority because I have worked in companies that offer insurance as one of their products (thank Anoia I never had to actually be involved with this dismal field).
J-I-B
Polythenegirl, please free reign to get as intellectual or infantile as you wish in these forums. Quite often this can happen in the same post!
But, if you're going to claim Moist is a lovable rogue, you've got to make an argument that passes the Jan test. I'm not even going to try. Moist, like Rincewind, is either your cuppa tea or he isn't.
J-I-B
But, if you're going to claim Moist is a lovable rogue, you've got to make an argument that passes the Jan test. I'm not even going to try. Moist, like Rincewind, is either your cuppa tea or he isn't.
J-I-B
Ahhh... I have no idea how I would justify it. I think its just the image I have of him to be honest.
But yes I do agree that is a very marmite character - you either love himn or you hate him
P.S. apologies for the bad spelling - one glass of wine too many and thinking quicker than I can type are to blame!
But yes I do agree that is a very marmite character - you either love himn or you hate him
P.S. apologies for the bad spelling - one glass of wine too many and thinking quicker than I can type are to blame!
raisindot said:
poohcarrot said:
The point in time where A-M starts the economic progress (that J-I*b has been going on about) is quite easy to pinpoint.
It's in the first chapter of "Colour of Magic" when Twoflower introdues the concept of insurance.
It's in the first chapter of "Colour of Magic" when Twoflower introdues the concept of insurance.
I can say this with authority because I have worked in companies that offer insurance as one of their products (thank Anoia I never had to actually be involved with this dismal field).
J-I-B
poohcarrot said:
In one of the hitch-hiker guide to the galaxy books, all the non-essential people were sent off to another planet. People like insurance salesmen, hairdressers, lawyers, newspaper editors, fashion designers etc. All the people you are classing as A-M's nouvelle middle class.
An updated version of this list would have to include bankers, oil company executives, CEOs, brokers, hedge fund managers, professional bloggers and twitterers, futurists, most politicians, and nearly everyone in Hollywood and professional sports. Not because they're necessarily "non-essential," but because it'd just be nice to have them all shipped off to another planet.
J-I-B
Ah the Golgafrincham B Ark!
Jeff - if 'professions' weren't in existence then how could Doug have included them? He did have dull documentary TV producers in there and PR people, so that covers marketing and possibly could lump in anything to do with reality TV. As he was a writer of course they didn't go on any Ark at all especially seeing as how Golgafrincham culture was founded by the Circling Poets...
Once again - just because it's not mentioned, doesn't mean it isn't there. And trust a man on the run to quibble away at the nature of reproduction when we all know for a fact that Discworld humans (including Trolls Dwarves, Werewolves and Vampire) are all social animals. Granted Banshees possibly don't like getting together aside for breeding purposes which is possibly why they're dying out. Witches also don't necessarily thrive comunally, which is why they're mostly out in the villages which have different but still social needs as in the big cities.
But AM as a progressive society - of course it's been that way all along! Terry's been writing about it for a long time now, so of course it's changing in the same way that it builds itself on top of older AMs. They had Guilds from the outset, which you seem to reject as a 'middle class', even though they stood pretty firmly between the aristocracy and the 'grunt' workers/wage slaves aka serfs if you're wanting it to be feudal. They have a Merchants Guild, ergo they have an economy for them to exploit and merchant away at...
Societies evolve rather than 'develop'. There's a growing in phase for the technologies or industries and the more it gets organised the more sophisticated the economy becomes. Terry's worked at AM for a long time and because it's such an interesting and extremely venal place he found a very lucrative vein to exploit in the criminal quarters that need to be 'organised' and so the Thieves Guild actually works in tandem with policing for the common good. AM already had in-sewer-ants before Twoflower got there - of the protection racket kind, granted but AM soon saw the advantages of insuring for damage to buildings by fire etc - so sophistry there already right at CoM entry level. Economics places value on it's markets and so insurance is also a sign of a healthy economy to have things or people worth insuring... *shrugs* 8)
Finally there's the simple attrition of the serial writer Rather proud of this one - Terry's sort of running out of 'things' to write about now. AM as the most human, in terms of dross as well as excellence and certainly the most dynamic of his cultural creations, is now so well defined in so many ways, that he has to start drilling down into the minutiae of B Ark style trappings with bankers and taxmen (and posties I suppose, although they do serve a useful purpose at least), that he can write about from a fresh perspective and satirise because he's done all the 'big' heroic stuff like witching, wizarding (and academia) and theatre, folklore, myth and religion (theatre grouped with those 'cos these are all dependant on 'showbizzy' aspects to get bums on seats), crime and law and order, time and death,war, pestilence and famine - the indefinite messy states of life and knowledge so yeah where's he gonna go for the lesser themes that makes life mad, mundane or marvellous? AM keeps growing in terms of sophistication and so now he's looking at the less 'attractive' life support institutions in a socio-economic culture - it's just a question of maturity and expansion. AM gets what it needs and if it hasn't got it yet Vetinari finds someone who's capable of sorting it out so it gets it. That's all.
Polythenegirl - You've agreed with me on Moist essentially. The more you look at Moist the more superficial and self-serving he gets. He is a lovable rogue for those who see him through rose-tinted specs. Those who won't do that, and I suspect that Spike is going to be one of those if she isn't already, fail to see him as someone deserving of faith or even admiration. He loves the kudos of the fantastic feat too much and when he runs out of that he moves on to something else. In fact I think he's addicted to it in his need to walk the tightrope to shock and awe. He's just a big show-off basically. Which is why he could never do Vetinari's job 'cos he'd be bored of the effort in a week. And yeah he's a marmite man like Rincewind
Over to you J-I-B How many more posts do we need now? :twisted:
Jeff - if 'professions' weren't in existence then how could Doug have included them? He did have dull documentary TV producers in there and PR people, so that covers marketing and possibly could lump in anything to do with reality TV. As he was a writer of course they didn't go on any Ark at all especially seeing as how Golgafrincham culture was founded by the Circling Poets...
Once again - just because it's not mentioned, doesn't mean it isn't there.
And trust a man on the run to quibble away at the nature of reproduction when we all know for a fact that Discworld humans (including Trolls Dwarves, Werewolves and Vampire) are all social animals. Granted Banshees possibly don't like getting together aside for breeding purposes which is possibly why they're dying out. Witches also don't necessarily thrive comunally, which is why they're mostly out in the villages which have different but still social needs as in the big cities. But AM as a progressive society - of course it's been that way all along!
Terry's been writing about it for a long time now, so of course it's changing in the same way that it builds itself on top of older AMs. They had Guilds from the outset, which you seem to reject as a 'middle class', even though they stood pretty firmly between the aristocracy and the 'grunt' workers/wage slaves aka serfs if you're wanting it to be feudal. They have a Merchants Guild, ergo they have an economy for them to exploit and merchant away at... Societies evolve rather than 'develop'. There's a growing in phase for the technologies or industries and the more it gets organised the more sophisticated the economy becomes. Terry's worked at AM for a long time and because it's such an interesting and extremely venal place he found a very lucrative vein to exploit in the criminal quarters that need to be 'organised' and so the Thieves Guild actually works in tandem with policing for the common good. AM already had in-sewer-ants before Twoflower got there - of the protection racket kind, granted but AM soon saw the advantages of insuring for damage to buildings by fire etc - so sophistry there already right at CoM entry level. Economics places value on it's markets and so insurance is also a sign of a healthy economy to have things or people worth insuring... *shrugs* 8)
Finally there's the simple attrition of the serial writer
Rather proud of this one - Terry's sort of running out of 'things' to write about now. AM as the most human, in terms of dross as well as excellence and certainly the most dynamic of his cultural creations, is now so well defined in so many ways, that he has to start drilling down into the minutiae of B Ark style trappings with bankers and taxmen (and posties I suppose, although they do serve a useful purpose at least), that he can write about from a fresh perspective and satirise because he's done all the 'big' heroic stuff like witching, wizarding (and academia) and theatre, folklore, myth and religion (theatre grouped with those 'cos these are all dependant on 'showbizzy' aspects to get bums on seats), crime and law and order, time and death,war, pestilence and famine - the indefinite messy states of life and knowledge so yeah where's he gonna go for the lesser themes that makes life mad, mundane or marvellous? AM keeps growing in terms of sophistication and so now he's looking at the less 'attractive' life support institutions in a socio-economic culture - it's just a question of maturity and expansion. AM gets what it needs and if it hasn't got it yet Vetinari finds someone who's capable of sorting it out so it gets it. That's all.Polythenegirl -
You've agreed with me on Moist essentially. The more you look at Moist the more superficial and self-serving he gets. He is a lovable rogue for those who see him through rose-tinted specs. Those who won't do that, and I suspect that Spike is going to be one of those if she isn't already, fail to see him as someone deserving of faith or even admiration. He loves the kudos of the fantastic feat too much and when he runs out of that he moves on to something else. In fact I think he's addicted to it in his need to walk the tightrope to shock and awe. He's just a big show-off basically. Which is why he could never do Vetinari's job 'cos he'd be bored of the effort in a week. And yeah he's a marmite man like Rincewind Over to you J-I-B
How many more posts do we need now? :twisted:
Ah! we're already there! 52 v 37 (so far)
Although there was the poll someone put up on CoM which did steal some of the posting - perhaps we should pool them in fairness? :twisted:
Pooh! You put the CoM poll up so what do you think? Ought it to be pooled with the discussion thread (in which case the total posting comes to out as 80) so this thread still has some way to go...
52 v 37 (so far) Although there was the poll someone put up on CoM which did steal some of the posting - perhaps we should pool them in fairness? :twisted:
Pooh! You put the CoM poll up so what do you think? Ought it to be pooled with the discussion thread (in which case the total posting comes to out as 80) so this thread still has some way to go...
Jan Van Quirm said:
Ah! we're already there! 52 v 37 (so far)
Although there was the poll someone put up on CoM which did steal some of the posting - perhaps we should pool them in fairness? :twisted:
Pooh! You put the CoM poll up so what do you think? Ought it to be pooled with the discussion thread (in which case the total posting comes to out as 80) so this thread still has some way to go...
52 v 37 (so far) Although there was the poll someone put up on CoM which did steal some of the posting - perhaps we should pool them in fairness? :twisted:
Pooh! You put the CoM poll up so what do you think? Ought it to be pooled with the discussion thread (in which case the total posting comes to out as 80) so this thread still has some way to go...
:twisted:
And, if we want to into related-but-off-topic pillages we should include all posts in the "Love Moist or Hate Moist" discussion that pertain to MM.
And, lastly, notice that we're already 53 in and there's been no invocation of Godwin's rule or any comparison of the Lavishes to Nazis---ooops!
J-I-B
Guys, I'm overjoyed that this discussion is now on three pages, but can we try and keep the discussion to the book? Apart from anything else, this discussion is for those who have read Making Money. Anyone who hasn't read it won't be (presumably) reading this and so your points about the developement of A-M are somewhat wasted.
It occurred to me recently that Igor and Hubert messing about with the economy and not really understanding what they are doing, was somewhat like Wall Street.
Apart from anything else, this discussion is for those who have read Making Money. Anyone who hasn't read it won't be (presumably) reading this and so your points about the developement of A-M are somewhat wasted. It occurred to me recently that Igor and Hubert messing about with the economy and not really understanding what they are doing, was somewhat like Wall Street.
I haven't joined in this discussion because, to be frank, although I dutifully picked up Making Money and started reading it again, it was an effort. I wanted to get back to The Lacuna, but that's another story (boom-boom). Sadly, I gave up about a third of the way through MM and haven't finished it (The Lacuna is great, though).
I can't think of another DW book that I've found so disappointing - and, yes, I include all of the tiresome Rincewind's adventures in that statement, because they at least had some other interesting things going on.
I like Marmite and I like Moist, self-serving and venal as he most certainly is. I thought Going Postal was a terrific book, but MM is, yawn, a similar story with a similar outcome. I can't remember who said it first on this thread, but I agree that the Golem army sub-plot was a regressive step for Golems, and a disappointment after they'd achieved so much in Feet of Clay and GP. And yes, we've already had the terracotta army in Interesting Times, and the sadness of being a clown in Wyrd Sisters. I liked Mr Bent's story and hadn't guessed his secret but, truth be told, Verence got there first.
So it all felt both retrogressive and regurgitated, I'm sorry to say. And I have already vowed to myself that if Pterry writes 'Raising Taxes' I shan't buy it until it appears in the '3 for 2' paperback shelf at the bookshop.
I can't think of another DW book that I've found so disappointing - and, yes, I include all of the tiresome Rincewind's adventures in that statement, because they at least had some other interesting things going on.
I like Marmite and I like Moist, self-serving and venal as he most certainly is. I thought Going Postal was a terrific book, but MM is, yawn, a similar story with a similar outcome. I can't remember who said it first on this thread, but I agree that the Golem army sub-plot was a regressive step for Golems, and a disappointment after they'd achieved so much in Feet of Clay and GP. And yes, we've already had the terracotta army in Interesting Times, and the sadness of being a clown in Wyrd Sisters. I liked Mr Bent's story and hadn't guessed his secret but, truth be told, Verence got there first.
So it all felt both retrogressive and regurgitated, I'm sorry to say. And I have already vowed to myself that if Pterry writes 'Raising Taxes' I shan't buy it until it appears in the '3 for 2' paperback shelf at the bookshop.
Another weakness/problem with Making Money is the lack of a real villain. The Lavishes, as primarily represented (much too extensively) by the boringly mad Cosimo and his increasingly dull & sickening attempt to become Vetinari and by his dumb blonde bombshell sister. Cribbins threats don't work, and having Moist suddenly worry about him seems just plain odd. There is no one in this book with the stature and menace of a Reacher Gilt.
Adora Belle and her mysterious ancient golems are a dreadful mistake. She had some character as Spike in GP and what seemed a real concern about the welfare of the golems. But her character is as different in this book as is Moist's. She seems perfectly content to see the new golems treated as machines who can be used as a kind of slave, with no trace of her previous views. Terry drops in that the old golems stop working and that they don't like the new ones, but Adora Belle seems totally oblivious to that problem. She's just annoyed that they won't respond to her commands.
And the whole thing with the dead, lascivious, knowledgeable wizard as well as the Cabinet of Curiosities may be supposed to be funny, but I found them annoying and boring. I was more disturbed with Terry's use of Gladys in this book. The golems have been recognized as a kind of people in the forgoing books. They have stature and worth. To turn Gladys into a ludicrous but not funny character who is "in love" with Moist and who reads books just is embarrassing.
Adora Belle and her mysterious ancient golems are a dreadful mistake. She had some character as Spike in GP and what seemed a real concern about the welfare of the golems. But her character is as different in this book as is Moist's. She seems perfectly content to see the new golems treated as machines who can be used as a kind of slave, with no trace of her previous views. Terry drops in that the old golems stop working and that they don't like the new ones, but Adora Belle seems totally oblivious to that problem. She's just annoyed that they won't respond to her commands.
And the whole thing with the dead, lascivious, knowledgeable wizard as well as the Cabinet of Curiosities may be supposed to be funny, but I found them annoying and boring. I was more disturbed with Terry's use of Gladys in this book. The golems have been recognized as a kind of people in the forgoing books. They have stature and worth. To turn Gladys into a ludicrous but not funny character who is "in love" with Moist and who reads books just is embarrassing.
Tonyblack said:
Guys, I'm overjoyed that this discussion is now on three pages, but can we try and keep the discussion to the book? Apart from anything else, this discussion is for those who have read Making Money. Anyone who hasn't read it won't be (presumably) reading this and so your points about the developement of A-M are somewhat wasted.
Apart from anything else, this discussion is for those who have read Making Money. Anyone who hasn't read it won't be (presumably) reading this and so your points about the developement of A-M are somewhat wasted.
But I do think the central debate of whether Pterry has created a "new" socioeconomic history of AM and which books might be part of this series is a valid one, since MM is probably the ultimate example of this, even if it's not a great book. Maybe some of the bizarre turns into prehistoric socioeconomic history take it off the chart a bit, but , heck, it's at least a bit more content-heavy than the usual load of Jan and Pooh and me zinging one-liner insults at each other.
J-I-B
