SPOILERS Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

[swreader]

I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to, Jan, about Moist "manipulating Mr. Pump" - unless you're referring to his getting him to go through the ritual of the postmen. But I think you're right about the golems, generally.

I agree with Tony about the book as a whole. There are so many things wrong and/or disconnected and contradictory in this book that it seems possible that something (his father's death, his own health or whatever) kept Terry from necessary re-writes. I was relieved, somewhat, with UA, and found Midnight excellent, so he seems to have recovered from whatever it was.

Jeff, I don't know what book you are reading--but you seem to be reading a different one than the rest of us. I think you've gotten so caught up in your socioeconomic theory, that it has pushed you over the edge into making up examples to support your claims. A great many things in your post (such as " when he saw the lead golem's eyes following him") simply are not in the book. Terry contradicts himself numerous times about these golems, there usefulness, whether or not they have chems, etc.. and who's going to do what with them. As I said previously, the only real function of the Umnian (not Omnian or Golden) golems has to do with getting Adora Belle out of the city leaving Moist free to have adventures. Furthermore, Terry doesn't even do a very good job (or a consistent one) of describing how the golems are to be used. For example, at one point there is a comment about using a golem (not clear whether human shaped or horse shaped) to "power the clacks towers"--a requirement that has never been mentioned before. But it's not mentioned later.

Another badly annoying part of the book, in my opnion is the inordinate amount of time that Terry spent on the Cosmo plot. Cosmo is clearly insane from the first time we meet him, but Terry keeps giving us more and more outlandish examples, each of which requires killing off one or more people. I guess this is supposed to be funny, but I found it intrusive and boring. Perhaps Terry thought Cosmo would be as funny in the way that Pucci's attempt to "expose" Moist as a fraud by saying that the paper notes are valueless is (only to find people bidding far more than face value for them). But we could have done without the Lavishes. They are not the kind of strong, challenging villains that Terry can write. And they're certainly not funny.

 

[poohcarrot]

One of the most important questions this book raises is one that has been overlooked by everyone so far. I'm talking about LURVE. Is Spike the right man for Moist (and vica versa)?

It seems that when Spike is with Moist, she stifles him and makes him boring. When she's not there, he seems to have more fun. Moist doesn't approve of her smoking because he's always making comments about it. He thinks she's obsessive about the golems. She's prone to violence while Moist isn't. Is he only staying with her because he feels guilty about being responsible for her losing her job in the bank (Going Postal)?

As far as I can see, it'll end in tears.

I think Moist would be better off with Sachrissa (the newspaper woman and the name is probably spelled wrongly ). There's definitely some chemistry there and Moist seems to act more like Moist when he's with her. With Spike he acts most "un-Moist-like" eg; by getting jealous about a dead wizard.

 

[pandasthumb]

I had always thought of the Golems as being akin to the 'Golem of Prague' type Golems rather than robots - but I think that it is something to think about. Doesn't the word 'robot' come from a word that means 'slave'?
Who are the slaves here and who has the freedom to create their own destiny?

Is there anyone really free in the novel? Possibly Gladys and she has made a choice to be a she?

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to, Jan, about Moist "manipulating Mr. Pump" - unless you're referring to his getting him to go through the ritual of the postmen. But I think you're right about the golems, generally.

I was being ironic SW - My view is that he didn't manipulate Mr. Pump in any way (you are a real wally sometimes Jeff :twisted: ) from his core instruction of not letting Moist escape his punishment/parole conditions. Yes, Moist turned it to his favour using Mr P as body guard but there the golem was still adhering like a limpet to his duties in his chem which were to keep Moist in AM working for the post office. His ride to Sto Lat or wherever the hell it was (don't know don't care) was on PO biz so that was fine

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

And while Professor Flead suggested the overall solution for the gold (NRG) golems without understanding the specifics, it took Moist--the master of using appearances to get beings of all kinds to do his bidding--to figure the critical part of the solution, during the part when everyone was at the palace arguing about what to do with the golden (NRG) golem army. He confirmed that this intuition was correct when he had a moment of 'alone time' with the lead gold (NRG) golem, whose gaze followed him as he moved.

Codswallop!

He used his 'reading' skills to make the connection that someone would have made eventually - not so fast maybe, but that has nothing to do with him reading the NRG golems. Noticing the eyes moving is simply akin to deciphering someone's 'tells' when they're playing poker (and I grant you that Moist is a consummate gambler not to mention bluffer and blusterer ).

The NRGs are unable to transcend their programming - they are proto-Golems and so are incapable of cognitive self-determination unlike the ones we've encountered in AM and elsewhere so the robot analogy stands until they find a way to communicate with them reliably - possibly through the regular Golems who are as we've seen deep thinkers and disinclined to endanger life - it's significant I think that the Dorfl's and Mr Pump's all had original chems that didn't have them doing anything remotely aggressive towards sentient beings, even if they worked in the abbatoir, until they made Meshugah. When they knew how badly they'd fouled up with him, they immediately tried to make amends even though they couldn't speak. Normal Golems are mostly peaceful, law-abiding creatures.

The NRGs are the worst sort of soldiers yes (they ALWAYS do as they're told), but what does that tell us about their makers? They didn't USE them. They rendered them useless and now AM's done the same, except inevitably they've given that a commercial slant (we can rule you wholesale... ). The horses are useful as carriers - as for the rest... they're essentially a non-entity again like the Banks gold was before - except they are their own built-in alarm system because nobody'll be able to steal them without anyone noticing...

 

[deldaisy]

I had always thought of the Golems as being akin to the 'Golem of Prague' type Golems rather than robots - but I think that it is something to think about. Doesn't the word 'robot' come from a word that means 'slave'?
Who are the slaves here and who has the freedom to create their own destiny?

Is there anyone really free in the novel? Possibly Gladys and she has made a choice to be a she?

Yeah I agree Panda. I have never thought of the Golem as anything near to a robot. They don't have the capacity to take input and adapt it as I would see a robot doing in any other SF novel. Can't reread everyone's comments but someone said "they are workhorses" or something to that effect. If they take action to "make amends" I see it as trying to make the original command more exact. To do what they were meant to do.

 

[raisindot]

He used his 'reading' skills to make the connection that someone would have made eventually - not so fast maybe, but that has nothing to do with him reading the NRG golems. Noticing the eyes moving is simply akin to deciphering someone's 'tells' when they're playing poker (and I grant you that Moist is a consummate gambler not to mention bluffer and blusterer ).

Thank you for confirming what I said. You are correct that in poker, one uses 'tells' to read a person's emotions or intentions. Moist did exactly this with the the lead golem. The lead golem would do nothing--would simply stay still, unmoving, until it "saw" someone who looked like "the right person." That 'tell' was enough to tell Moist his theory on how to communicate with the golems was correct. Moist needed this tell to confirm his theory, to cast away any doubt that his solution was the right one. He didn't need to know if the golem was thinking. He didn't need to know what the golem's intentions were. He didn't need to care whether the golem was sentient or not. All needed to know was that, in his current getup, he looked like "the right person" at the right time.

The only other person who would have been able to figure this out was Vetinari (Flead certainly didn't). But even Vetinari would not have had the imagination and understanding of the baser nature of old perverts to come up with the unique bribe that convinced Flead to create the Umnian phrase book. Vetinari might have eventually gotten the phrases from somewhere else but by that time other nations might have declared war on AM and the city itself would probably be in chaos because traffic wouldn't be able to move with all the golems blocking the streets.

The NRGs are the worst sort of soldiers yes (they ALWAYS do as they're told)

I would think that any general would love to have an army that could operate like humans but be indestructible, able to wreak huge amounts of damage with impunity, never susceptible to disease, and never have to be paid. From a military point of view, they're the best kind of soldiers to have.

...but what does that tell us about their makers? They didn't USE them. They rendered them useless and now AM's done the same, except inevitably they've given that a commercial slant (we can rule you wholesale... ). The horses are useful as carriers - as for the rest... they're essentially a non-entity again like the Banks gold was before...

What about the several hundred golems who are to be used to power the clacks? Are they chopped liver? It's not that AM doesn't intend to use them; it's that, at this moment in time, AM doesn't know how to employ thousands of golems as laborers without upsetting the economic balance of AM (which is the entire point). The roundworld equivalent is the bogey scare of hordes of immigrant workers "taking jobs away" from citizens (although, in reality, the citizens never really want to do the jobs the immigrants are more than willing to do).

In any case, the golems are buried at the moment until wiser heads can figure out how to judiciously use their labor. One would guess at some future point that some of these golems would be used for certain tasks (such as developing the "undercity" of AM). Is this slave labor? That really depends on one's view over whether these golems are tools or potentially sentient beings. Pterry doesn't give us an easy answer here. He seems to be struggling with the ethics of the situation, which is one of the strengths of the book. Far more satisfying and thought provoking than the fairy tale endings of UA and I Shall Wear Midnight.

J-I-B

 

[raisindot]

One of the most important questions this book raises is one that has been overlooked by everyone so far. I'm talking about LURVE. Is Spike the right man for Moist (and vica versa)?

It seems that when Spike is with Moist, she stifles him and makes him boring. When she's not there, he seems to have more fun. Moist doesn't approve of her smoking because he's always making comments about it. He thinks she's obsessive about the golems. She's prone to violence while Moist isn't. Is he only staying with her because he feels guilty about being responsible for her losing her job in the bank (Going Postal)?

As far as I can see, it'll end in tears.

I think Moist would be better off with Sachrissa (the newspaper woman and the name is probably spelled wrongly ). There's definitely some chemistry there and Moist seems to act more like Moist when he's with her. With Spike he acts most "un-Moist-like" eg; by getting jealous about a dead wizard.

Spike is good for him only in the sense that she's the only one (besides Vetinari) who can see through his BS and the only one with whom he can totally confide. I don't think he stays with her out of guilt--I think he really does love her, partly because she is one of the only people who aren't susceptible to his "manipulative charms." Plus the fact that she holds so much back from him that he is kept interested in the challenge of winning her over.

Spike might be good for him domestically, but she's bad for his business. When she is around, Moist reverts to the 'respectable' merchant who takes no risks. As a mover and shaker, Moist operates at his best when he is on his own, having to walk the tightrope without a net. Vetinari understands this, and even though he tells her that she really out to be around more to keep Moist in line, deep down he knows that Moist solves problems a lot more effectively when she's not there.

It'll be interesting to see how much of a presence Spike has in "Raising Taxes." I wouldn't be surprised if Vetinari himself doesn't somehow arrange for her to be away somewhere when he drops Moist into the next soup.

As for Sacaricia (sp.), she is married--Moist notices the ring on her finger. (I think she's married to Wm. De Worde, but we never really know). Tempermentally, they're probably far more suited for each other. But I doubt Pterry would have Moist break up with Spike and get into an affair with Sacaricia. Moist might be a bastard, but he only acts like a bastard when people deserve it.

J-I-B

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Far more satisfying and thought provoking than the fairy tale endings of UA and I Shall Wear Midnight.

I'd say you've got a pretty good fairytale for this book going yourself there Jeff - it's all a question of perspective and whether you're using fish-eye lens and/or rose-tinted specs

FACT - Moist is using some of the NRGs and the horses to help make the clacks/PO operate better

FACT - they (other people as well as Moist) don't know what to do with the rest of them except pro temps to use them as the Golem Standard in order to keep the socio-economic markets buzzing away happily.

FACT - the Golems were blocking the streets for a relatively short time and if Moist hadn't sorted it then see below for the next obvious point. AM historically will mostly not go war ('cos it's bad for business) so they would have dealt with it fairly quickly - the oooo we're going to be attacked now is complete pants 'cos AM must operate come what may - red stars (LF); Dungeon Dimensions (MP); dragons (GG) Music with Rocks In; foot the ball. A bunch of ceramic-ware figures standing about doing nothing was never going to stop business as usual for too long.

PRETTY SAFE BET FACT - Armed with the same information and especially once the free Golems made some input (like Sgt. Dorfl for instance), there are in fact several other 'people-savvy' people that we know of who could have made similar connections as Moist and, naturally, Vetinari. How about.... William de Worde; Vimes; Carrot; Ponder Stibbons; Prof Hix; Ridcully - RINCEWIND? 8) Mr. Stronginthearm (or a another cunning artisan) might even have had some theories on what to do. I won't go on and on about it Just because they weren't on the scene in good time doesn't mean they couldn't have been involved pretty soon and been just as likely to make the same conclusions coming from different directions naturally.

Spike & Moist - like Pooh says, it's all in the challenge with Adorabelle (what a bloody awful name too - Terry's usually much better than that!). He knows she thinks he's slippery and twisted and so he almost has to make her fall for him. The minute she does he'll be off (well maybe not a minute, but he'll be bored within a day or so).

Saccharissa (proper spelling and Terry back on form with a fake sickly sweet name) is forbidden fruit and someone who can pull strings for him to show off to. In fact Saccharissa wants him to take 'larger than life' to ever greater heights - of preening/showing off - so she can sell newspapers. That's one thing he really excels at in a sort of car crash gobby outrageously celebrity way (if Moist was female he'd be Katy Price ).

I will give Moist one thing. He does at least use his undoubted intelligence and personal charm for a good humanitarian cause when it suits him unlike our Katie (never think the woman is stupid - Germaine Greer calls her a genius and she ain't kidding ) who is great at selling tat including and especially herself.

 

[poohcarrot]

:
Spike & Moist - like Pooh says, it's all in the challenge with Adorabelle (what a bloody awful name too - Terry's usually much better than that!). He knows she thinks he's slippery and twisted and so he almost has to make her fall for him. The minute she does he'll be off (well maybe not a minute, but he'll be bored within a day or so).

Exactly!

 

[raisindot]

Spike & Moist - like Pooh says, it's all in the challenge with Adorabelle (what a bloody awful name too - Terry's usually much better than that!). He knows she thinks he's slippery and twisted and so he almost has to make her fall for him. The minute she does he'll be off (well maybe not a minute, but he'll be bored within a day or so).

She already has fallen for him. The wouldn't be 'enfianced' if she hadn't. And he has fallen for her. At the end of GP, when they're about to have the typical 'lover's clinch,' he imagines himself , running away, going back to life as a grifter, finding the life not as much fun as it once was and then ending up dying alone in bed--and, then an angel appeared. And that angel is her.

He will never leave her for another woman. If he leaves her, it'll only be if he decided, a la Reacher Gilt, to disappear altogether. I just don't see Pterry allowing that to happen. He's got bigger plans for Moist to continue the economic evolution of AM.

J-I-B

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

I meant 'fall' as in fall into bed - :twisted: Lots of challenge left in there still - for now. It's when he's completely cracked her that the trouble will start - mark my words! 8)

From your PoV she's positively bad for him anyway - sucks all the life out of him like an ash-ridden Dementor She's got him way under her thumb and on his best behaviour which as you so rightly says is not his style at all.

 

[raisindot]

I meant 'fall' as in fall into bed - :twisted: Lots of challenge left in there still - for now. It's when he's completely cracked her that the trouble will start - mark my words! 8)

How do you know that he hasn't gotten the hanky with the panky yet?An unspecified amount of time that has passed between the end of GP and the beginning of MM and somewhere in that time they've become engaged, perhaps literally. Adorabelle doesn't seem to be the type who would be so worried about prudish morals, given the way she way sucks down cigarettes.



J-I-B

 

[poohcarrot]

In GP didn't she say about Moist being in her room that she'd tell her parents they were having sex, and they'd be over the moon?

As I've lent my GP to a student and my UK proof has string round it that I don't want to take off, I can't check.

 

[raisindot]

Another badly annoying part of the book, in my opnion is the inordinate amount of time that Terry spent on the Cosmo plot. Cosmo is clearly insane from the first time we meet him, but Terry keeps giving us more and more outlandish examples, each of which requires killing off one or more people. I guess this is supposed to be funny, but I found it intrusive and boring. Perhaps Terry thought Cosmo would be as funny in the way that Pucci's attempt to "expose" Moist as a fraud by saying that the paper notes are valueless is (only to find people bidding far more than face value for them). But we could have done without the Lavishes. They are not the kind of strong, challenging villains that Terry can write. And they're certainly not funny.

Finally, one thing we can agree on.

I think the Lavishes are the weakest villains Pterry has ever created, and it's this weakness that is the main weakness of the book--the lack of a compelling 'hazard' for Moist to overcome.

The Lavishes are needed in the sense that all of these books needs villains, but they themselves never come anywhere close to placing real obstacles in Moist's way.

Cosmo's murderous actions have nothing to with Moist; they're only about his insane desire to be Vetinari (boy, we haven't seen this plot before, have we?). In fact, had Bent not gone nuts and hidden himself inside the vault, the whole issue of the missing gold might never have come up, since the Lavishes clearly lacked the imagination to devise a plot to frame Moist that way (they only jumped in as accusers after the gold was discovered missing, and it's not 100% clear whether Cosmo and Poochie knew that their father had stolen the gold in the first place. Poochie might not have known where all of the gold rings and things came from until the courtroom scene).

Perhaps Pterry did this intentionally, portraying the Lavishes as "anti-Gilts" (i.e., lacking the killer instincts or imagination needed to solve problems) as a way of demonstrating the impotence of the old AM aristocracy against the 'new ways' of the Moist and Vetinari.

They're so impotent that even Moist doesn't really get mad at them. Unlike his personal vendetta to destroy Reacher Gilt, he never sees the Lavishes as anything other than a mildly dangerous irritant, but nothing he has to particularly concerned about. Even at the end, he acts very kindly toward the clearly mad Cosmo, and when he is trying to convince Bent to come back to the bank he cites that Bent is needed to help get the Lavishes out of the trouble they've caused. He has been so co-opted by the system that he wants to help the bank's shareholders start earning again, rather than try to oust them entirely (as he did in GP).

J-I-B

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

In GP didn't she say about Moist being in her room that she'd tell her parents they were having sex, and they'd be over the moon?

Don't remember that one in GP pooh, but then I wasn't paying attention too much -

That's one gag that crops up in discworld a lot varying on a theme. Was in MP with Ginger and with Mrs Cake too - perhaps for Angua and I think in The Truth for William when Saccharissa visits him at his digs?

Jeff - attraction isn't the problem for them - in fact there is no probem so long as Spike keeps on slapping him every so often. They may be having wild sex all over, but it's Spike's general attitude that's the hook for him - whenever she treats him like a piece of pond life he rises to the bait (fnarr fnarr) and he has to keep on justifying himself to her the whole time. He needs to fight for approval with her every step of the way and no matter how much he behaves 'well' he's always on probation with her, so that's why he's so fixated with her - he needs her disapproval and additionally it's the thrill of the chase. So with her it's a power game and if she wins it's winner takes all - he'll have to change and be an upstanding citizen. He wins and the game goes on forever. Either of them could get bored of that or each other eventually, so with my family law hat on they're a bad match and that's the magic for both of them. She doesn't trust him and he knows she's right not to is the bottom line...

With Saccharissa it's another sort of game (egging on) where they both have the same object in the form of flirting - she wants him to do something 'amazing' and newsworthy and he loves it and plays along. There's no depth and if either of them took it any further then the other one would probably run a mile.

 

[raisindot]

Jeff - attraction isn't the problem for them - in fact there is no probem so long as Spike keeps on slapping him every so often. They may be having wild sex all over, but it's Spike's general attitude that's the hook for him - whenever she treats him like a piece of pond life he rises to the bait (fnarr fnarr) and he has to keep on justifying himself to her the whole time.

Jan, it's Adorabelle who is the 'aggressor' of the two, not Moist. In both GP and AM, it's she who initiates the physical activity (which is always interrupted), not him.

Now, what happened between GP and MM is up to question.

In MM, however, he doesn't try very hard to woo her anymore. She's almost more a sidekick here than anything else. The most romantic thing they do is have dinner, and even that gets spoiled by a sheep's head. Even at the end, when she wants to have a quickie in the vault, all he's thinking about are piggy banks.

In GP, she inspired him to take risks and act outrageously. In MM, she keeps him from taking risks and makes him act more like the respected member of the community he always feared he would become. Ultimately, in MM, they act more like an old married couple. Yet, he seems quite fine with this arrangement. Which suggest to me that they've already done the deed.

J-I-B

 

[raisindot]

In GP didn't she say about Moist being in her room that she'd tell her parents they were having sex, and they'd be over the moon?
(

No, no and no.

She and Moist were never in 'her room,' they were in the equivalent of a living room. And she said she told her parents that he was 'courting' her, not shagging her.

J-I-B

 

[Tonyblack]

The problem is that Terry really doesn't do romance. What Moist and Adora Belle had in GP was a sort of sparring. To a degree Moist is attracted by the challenge of her. By MM they seem to have at least an understanding, but it's not taken any further. The challenge has gone, but they aren't exactly a couple.

Moist seems to miss her when she's away and looks forward to her return, but when she does return, she doesn't seem at all interested in him.

Like I say, Terry doesn't do romance. His couples seem to live their lives separately together. Saccharissa and William seem to have got together at the end of The Truth and we learn that they are probably married in a later book, but we have never seen them together in a book since The Truth. Vimes and Sybil seem to have gone from courting (can't think of a better term) to 'old married couple' with very little in between. Carrot and Angua's romance has never developed and even Mr Nutt and Glenda have buggered off now they are interested in each other.

 

[Bouncy Castle]

Mr Nutt and Glenda

Dear lord. Think of the children!