SPOILERS Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

[Jan Van Quirm]

You are soooooooooo literal!

It's nothing to do with feminism at all! - you said...

Everything she does for Moist, from pressing his pants to bringing his newspaper to getting him his breakfast are the actions of a lovestruck person.

Those are the actions of a female who's got over being lovestruck quite some time ago (Lovestruck is 2nd stage attraction - well 3rd perhaps after WOW and scraping your chin off the floor and then hanging around waiting for him to notice you - some kind of verbal interaction has to have taken place anyway ) and has gone onto the consolidation stages in showing the prospective long-term mate she's a keeper on the domestic front - like a mum...

I won't expect you to understand all that given your comments about dry cleaning etc *pats your head very hard*, but ask your wife and she'll explain better than I can perhaps A golem would certainly understand the trouser-pressing, newspaper smoothing etc because that's practical - it has nothing whatsoever to do with being in love or fancying you are, even if you're capable of having those emotions

Like males, the last thing on a female's mind whilst they're falling for a love object is putting slippers by the fire and keeping the glassware shiny - plumping cushions perhaps, but only in the bedroom and they're about to or have just squashed them up a lot and plumped away on them without the 'L' :twisted: In present day Britain (and the US I daresay) doing the domestic chores is strictly something that couldn't happen until a couple are at least 'going steady' but in the equivalent time-frame (vaguely victorian/dickension) domestic bliss was something that didn't come into the courting equation in any way until after the wedding (or at least co-habitation as even then a piece of paper wasn't always needed). Then, yes - being a domestic godess was a proper expression of love or if they were rich enough the ordering the servants to do it.

Trust me, on this basis whatever romantic mush Gladys was reading away from the PO ladies domain, she would have been reading about post-marital, maternal or servant duties. Professional pride was wounded at the most (aside from the comedy aspect naturally) - golems aren't that naive and if she was, well what you don't know you don't miss. She'll have got over it quickly enough

 

[raisindot]

Jan, we're never going to agree on this one, but I'm going to give this a final go.


Gladys is a GOLEM. What do golems do? They WORK. They measure the value of their worth by the WORK they do. Since have no possessions and no sex appeal, the only thing they have to OFFER is the value of their work.

For whatever reason, Glady believe that she is smitten with Moist, and not in a maternal way at all. There is nothing you can say to convince me that the act of her eyes fading when he tells her he is engaged to Spike is anything other than the reaction of jilter suitor suffering unrequited love. If you don't buy this, read the text afterward, where Moist feels terrible for smiting her smittenness, but realizes that it has to be done. If Gladys was simply acting in a maternal way, he never would have needed to say this to her. She could have continued to act like the mom while he got it on with Spike.

Because Gladys doesn't have sex appeal (or even understand what it means), and because golems measure their value in terms of the work they do, the things she does for Moist--pressing his pants, making him lunch, bringing him the newspaper, and all that--are, in her literal golem mind, acts of love because she doesn't know how to express it in any other way.

And if you don't think these kinds of 'work-as-a-love-offerings' happen in real roundworld life, think again. In school, when I was growing up, boys always were offering to 'carry girl's books' or 'do their homework for them' or 'walk them home.' Obviously, these were done partly to build worth, and partly to spend time with them. This doesn't stop when people become adults, either. Richard Nixon, when was trying to court his future wife, who wasn't all that keen on him at the time, used to chauffer her and her date to their dates, while he pitifully pined in the driver's seat. Lady Bird Johnson was able to woo LBJ from the many other women he was dating by cleaning his apartment and cooking him dinner nearly every night.

From a personal note, on my second date with my future wife (who was still dating around) I fixed her a five course meal made entirely from scratch, which she managed to survive without too much internal damage.

Not a single thing about any of these actions that puts them in the category or maternal or paternal behavior. Both people (and golems) often use the currency of labor as a means to prove their value in the eyes of the person they're smitten with. This is as old as humanity itself. The difference is, that golems can only show their affection in terms of work, since that is really all they know.

J-I-B

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Jeff darling - we do agree and are singing from the same hymn-sheet on this - you just forgot your reading glasses and have a softer, kinder heart.

We've both said it - Gladys is a golem and doesn't know what love is all about. Moist is also anthropomorphising like crazy, possibly because he's so great at 'reading' people and sees her as being hurt, whilst trying to demolish her 'crush'. She IS hurt, but over her services (love-gifts if you must), being spurned as she sees it.

Actually there is a kind of gender element here in that Gladys is simply too good for these menial house-servant roles. She is in fact more suited to a butler/housekeeper role and if Moist truly was that clued up 'she'd' make a great Gentleman's Gentleman as his valet. Then Gladys could iron his pants and even his newspaper (to get the creases nice & sharp and smooth out the other crinkles - they really used to do this! ) to her heart's content... 8)

Feel better about this now?

 

[raisindot]

Feel better about this now?

I think Pooh said it best in a different thread:

There's nothing wrong with my .......um....er....... what was I talking about.?

J-I-B

 

[BaldFriede]

I never had the feeling Gladys has a crush on Moist. She has just discovered she is a woman and does all that women are supposed to do according to the book she read. Then, after having read the book Adora gave her, she changes her attitude to "modern woman". That's all; no crush on Moist whatever.

 

[raisindot]

I never had the feeling Gladys has a crush on Moist. She has just discovered she is a woman and does all that women are supposed to do according to the book she read. Then, after having read the book Adora gave her, she changes her attitude to "modern woman". That's all; no crush on Moist whatever.

Again, I must ask: If so, why does the 'fire' in her eyes glow dim when Moist tells her he is engaged to Spike? If she were 'doing all that women are supposed to do' and had no emotional pining for him, PTerry would not have put this line in. If Gladys had no 'feelings' for Moist at all, she would have responded something like, "It is Very Good That You Are Engaged! I Would Be Very Happy to Iron Ms. Dearheart's Dress And Bring Her a Newspaper As Well And Bring You Two Some Sonkies."

Remember, too, that shortly after this 'rejection,' Spike and Moist are very concerned that Gladys, in her disconsolation, was going to turn Mr. Fusspot into stew as revenge. When they confronted her in the kitchen, Gladys even acted a bit like a jilted suitor when they saw her stirring the pot and gave Spike a little bit of talkback when Spike told her to let them inspect it. the souppot. In fact, Spike had to use her best "golem command" voice to get Gladys to obey her, something Gladys obviously did not want to do.

Glady's actions in these scenes is not one of a servant or a housemaid doing their chores. They're the actions of an unrequited admirer. Now, whether these are Gladys' own emotions or whether she was'programmed' to act this way after reading the outdated books on etiquette is up to question. Golems are capable of feeling something like emotion--in GP, Mr. Pump knew enough about what pleasure and happiness meant to say that meeting Moist inspire both feelings in him, Gladys, aided by books and interactions with female postal workers, would certainly be able to develop golem approximations of affection, jealousy and resentment.

If this wasn't an important thing, Pterry would never have included the Gladys subplot in the book. But he does, to contrast the "thinking" golems like Gladys from the mindless automatons of the golden (NRG) army.

J-I-B

 

[BaldFriede]

Ah, but does she really have the crush or is she mimicking it? Now don't get me wrong; it is not as if I think Golems are incapable of emotion. But all Gladys knows about love is from a book, and she behaves by the book. Mark how drastically her attitude changes as soon as she has read the book Adora has given her.

 

[raisindot]

Ah, but does she really have the crush or is she mimicking it? Now don't get me wrong; it is not as if I think Golems are incapable of emotion. But all Gladys knows about love is from a book, and she behaves by the book. Mark how drastically her attitude changes as soon as she has read the book Adora has given her.

Ah, see, that's the key question that's very difficult to answer. Since golems are influenced by words written or spoken by humans more than anything else, you'd think that she is mimicking the crush, based on her conversations with the other postal women and the books she was reading. But it's hard to know.

It's also hard to know whether she became receptive to Spike's feminist literature simply because Spike recommended it, or, because Gladys, having had her spirit crushed by believing the effectiveness of the words in the "etiquette books," was more receptive to these new ideas 'new ideas' that would help 'ease her pain' by showing her she didn't need a man to be self-actualized.

That's what's so fun about these books. Pterry never truly gives the answer, leaving enough vagueness for posters in DW forums to make their own conjectures.



J-IB

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Jeff - stop anthropomorphising!

She's reading stuff to do with her job and it's all about doing it to the best of her ability. She's associating mainly with women and so of course she's observing and taking notice of what entailed in how the people who do the work she does go about it. She's wanting to do it all herself as perfectly as possible - Spike has to be forceful with looking in the pot because she's insulting Gladys' work, not because she was 'feeling' vengeful.

On an emotional and human basis Gladys is a gigantic animated china teapot that does the housework FFS! :twisted: (Giving physical and domestic comfort wherever she goes... ). Possibly she's a Denby teapot rather than a Meisen one (heavyweight and hard-wearing)

She and Moist assumed that Gladys would cook Mr. Fusspot - why the hell would she do that? That isn't how a good cook and homemaker works. It wouldn't have even crossed her mind to cook a dog - any dog. What she might have done was ban Mr Fusspot from jumping on the furniture or walking across a wet kitchen floor but for matters culinary dogs wouldn't feature in any way. It's all to do with the work - anything else is all in Moist's and Spike's heads because it's funny (just about now *yawns*).

 

[Dotsie]

Jeff - stop anthropomorphising!

Do you really believe though that a golem is just the sum of its parts, or is it more than that? If a golem can feel shame, or anger (feet of clay), why can't a golem learn to feel love?

It might have only been a non-serious juvenile crush, but Gladys is just learning. It wouldn't surprise me to hear of a golem wedding at some time.

So yes, I agree with Jib.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

A golem wedding yeah - bride golem and groom golem. I not saying they're emotionless, just that they're not going to have emotions like a human would.

 

[Dotsie]

But they've already shown that they do So why can't they fall in love?

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

They can fall in love I expect - but why would it be like it is for humans? Same as sex - perfectly possible too, but not how humans do it as they're mostly missing the parts

This could lead to all kinds of fun naturally - perhaps something like THIS? And imagine making little golems - all the mess but none of the pain...! PMSL :twisted: I wish I was a golem momma!

PS - for those who were expecting Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore. Sorry to disappoint but that's far too trite since they're far too wooden to properly portray ceramic lurve

 

[BaldFriede]

Just imagine pregnant golems! Would they have the munchies? Probably not; food is not a golem concept.

 

[raisindot]

Jan, it doesn't matter that Glady would never have friscaseed Mr. Fusspot. What's important here is that both Spike and Moist knew of the golem's jealous feelings and, because anything that can happen on the Discworld usually does, wrongfully assumed, after seeing Mr. Fusspot's collar on the ground, that her jealousy might manifest itself in poochcide. There's precedence for golems becoming killers when they don't understand the words in their heads--that's a central theme of Feet of Clay.



When they see Gladys in the kitchen staring at an overflowing pot their worst instincts kick in and they think it's possible, just possible, that Glady might have committed this foul deed. Spike tells her to give her the ladle. Gladys at first refuses--A GOLEM REFUSES A PERFECLY REASONABLE ORDER! Not because Gladys feels that Spike is questioning the quality of her work, but because she is still harboring resentments against Spike for stealing 'her man.' In the end Spike has to use her Golem Voice to get Gladys to obey her. And even though the doggie is safe, it's still clear that Gladys was still distracted and upset by Moist's rejection because she either forgot or failed to follow Peggy's order to remove the sheep's head from the pot once it thickened. (yes, intentional pune here)

It doesn't matter where Gladys's 'feelings' came from or what the golem is made of or what her job is. She is acting just like a spurned suitor. And if you think that she's nothing more than a matronly housekeeper, how do you explain her offer to give Moist a backrub? No housekeeper would ever do this, but is there a single woman who hasn't been grossed out by the offer of a backrub by some sleazy coworker she barely knows? If you tried this sort of thing in an American company, you'd risk getting your arse tossed out on a sling.



J-I-B

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

How about Mummy/homemaker rubbing her croupy baby's back? You don't need to be in the first flush of romance to play masseuse.

It's all happening in the humans guilty imaginations. Yes it's possible for golems to misinterpret their chems, but Gladys is not half-baked like Meshugah who I agree was off his trolley because his chem was overloaded as well as imperfectly made. Gladys is perhaps confused and trying to realign her chem to cope and as a result having the odd loony aberration.

You say unrequited love/thwarted sweetheart - I say overzealous nursery nanny/domestic goddess. Result is the same but to put a totally wrong connotation on the situation requires human ingenuity - Golems just get the hump and sulk like mad because they're not being allowed to do their job properly :twisted:

 

[raisindot]

You say unrequited love/thwarted sweetheart - I say overzealous nursery nanny/domestic goddess.

Unrequited love!

Overzealous nursery nanny!

Thwarted Sweetheart!

Domestic goddess!

Let's call the whole thing offfff.....



J-I-B

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

No - lets discontinue this line of debate

Whadya wanna argue about next? We're well over the 80 mark by now I should think :twisted:

 

[raisindot]

Whadya wanna argue about next? We're well over the 80 mark by now I should think :twisted:

Not an argument, but a question. What was the whole bit about the cook who went bonkers? Don't have the book here at the moment, but it was either that something someone said or showed him made him go crazy, and then he never shows up again. Was he supposed to be a vampire? I never quite got the point of all that.

J-I-B

 

[Tonyblack]

I don't think he was supposed to be a vampire - he didn't actually have any problem with garlic, it was just the word 'garlic'. A real problem for a chef, but luckily, dogs don't generally need the stuff.

As with so many other parts of the book - it didn't make a lot of sense and wasn't particularly funny. The only real thing that came out of it was the point that people are squeamish about eating certain parts of a dead animal, whereas they aren't with others. It's all flesh of one sort or another after all.