Mark Reads Discworld

[=Tamar]

Re: Mark Reads Discworld-Vimes's Badge

Today Mark is due to post the video of the scene where the watch find out that Vimes has been gripping his badge so tightly that it has cut into his hand. I am making a general complaint to the universe, which will ignore me, that everybody who draws pictures of Vimes and the watchmen gets it wrong.
Until they get Vimes's hand to open, they can't see what he's holding; that means that his badge is comparatively small, and no edges show outside a closed fist.
I checked in GG, and in the scene just after Carrot describes the town as being "on Fate" in a letter, Wonse takes Vimes's badge (with a lot less fuss). The badge is described as "the verdigrised disc of copper." DISC. Not shield-shaped. Just a round disc (or Disc, if you prefer the allusion to the shape of the Discworld).
In MAA, when the Bearhugger's relaxes Vimes's hand, it isn't described.
But in the beginning of MAA, when Carrot writes to his family on page one, he writes that he is now a corporal and he has "a new copper badge!"
That implies that his old one was different. And Cuddy thinks to himself in Quarry Lane that he was given a badge shaped like a shield. I believe that this means that either corporals in the watch have a different shaped badge, or that the badges have been redesigned along with the order to hire more watchmen. It is emphasized at times that Vimes has had his badge since he was a raw recruit and it was old then, so I prefer the "recent redesign" theory. It could even have been touted as a symbol of the "new Watch" if Ankh-Morpork went in for that kind of hype. (I also think that Colon and Nobbs should have the old round badges, but they are more likely than Vimes to go along with being assigned a new one.)
Most of the portrayals of the watch badge show it as shield-shaped; some are even many-pointed-star shaped. Usually they manage to put a molded disc-shape inside the shield. None that I have seen so far have made Vimes's badge the correct simple disc.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Hmm... I'd never thought about this as much as you have, =Tamar, but you are undoubtedly correct. "Verdigrised copper" basically means "a green or bluish patina formed on copper, brass, or bronze surfaces exposed to the atmosphere for long periods of time, consisting principally of basic copper." So I guess that any drawing of Vimes's badge should show this.

There are just two questions I have about this:

1. The "official" drawings of Vimes (as shown in The Pratchett Portfolio, or on the cover of Snuff, or in Kidby's portrayal of the Night Watch in Guards! Guards!) all show Vimes with a shield-shaped badge. So perhaps Kidby got it wrong too? Just a thought.

Note that in Night Watch, Vimes is noted as thinking on the lines of "The badge. Yes. It was important. It was shield-shaped. For guarding..." etc., or something along those lines (italics mine). Now, obviously, NW was written a long time after G! G!, so it's possible that by then, even Vimes has relented and got a new badge. (Or - since NW is set a long time in the past - perhaps the Watch in the time of Homicidal Lord Winder had shield-shaped badges? Hmm...)

2. My other question is much simpler. If Vimes's badge was a simple smooth disc in G! G!, how could he clutch it so tightly in MAA that his hands would bleed? Now, it's possible that the copper disc's edges were worn so smooth that they'd somehow become very sharp, but I can't see how - nor do I see why, if Vimes had clutched a very sharp round disc, he wouldn't have let go in agony. A very sharp, round piece of metal cutting into your hand would really, really hurt.

My guess is that TP had simply forgotten that Vimes's badge was round in G! G!, and that after G! G!, he reverted to the more familiar shield-shaped badge. Of course, we can't know for sure without Word of God(TM).

 

[=Tamar]

I agree, it's most likely that it's one of those alternate pasts. It just gripes me, because I really like the idea that the badge is shaped like the Disc itself, and the pun on "copper" being the old slang word for a copper penny. Obviously I don't know why Sir Terry made the change. Maybe he decided he preferred the symbolism of the protective badge, or maybe he just decided the pun had a potential negative connotation that was only appropriate for the Watch at the beginning of GG, not later. It might even be that the consistent misrepresentation on books covers affected his choice. You're right that Night Watch confirms the change to a shield-shaped badge, because that's when we see young Vimes who has just gotten his own badge., and so has Colon. (Nobby of course hasn't joined yet.)
ETA: Considering that the whole of Night Watch is an alternate past that led to some changes in the "present", maybe one of those small changes was the change in the badge shape.

 

[=Tamar]

P.S. The illustrators still draw the badges too big. The badge was completely hidden in a clenched fist. Try it yourself: that badge can't be as big as the ones in the pictures. Incidentally, mundane badges that I've seen really are quite small.

 

[RathDarkblade]

It is true that badges are often smaller than people draw them. Perhaps people draw them that big so that they can be seen? *wonders*

By the way, in Paul Kidby's G! G! illustration, does it bother anyone that Carrot's hands are so huge?

 

[=Tamar]

In that picture, Carrot and Nobby are both drawn with cartoon-like proportions. Carrot in particular is proportioned like Detritus; his hands would drag on the ground if they weren't supported. Nobby's forearms are the thickness of Carrot's fingers. Vimes and to some extent Colon are drawn with fairly normal human proportions.

It isn't the first time that Kidby has gotten the proportions wrong. I was looking at the Mona Ogg and wondering why it seemed so odd, and realized that she is in an almost impossible pose. Her chest is aimed one way and her neck another. Her head is remarkably big and held in a position that would give her severe neck strain if it's even possible, and her right arm appears to have stretched to reach where her right hand is. I used to like his artwork but he seems to have gone downhill when it comes to bodily proportions. Kidby's signature blend of cartoon proportions and realistic painting works for most of his pictures but not, in my opinion, for the Mona Ogg.

 

[Tonyblack]

I don't think I have ever let any of the illustrations, or the actors playing the characters in TV films, influence my own internal model of what the characters actually look like.

 

[=Tamar]

I don't often have a strong image of a character's appearance. Even when I have an image available, say from an actor or two (Vetinari has two available, for instance), it doesn't stay consistent. When the book has almost no description, I have a sort of generic human-shaped blob for a mental image of the character, but a blob which is imbued with the personality given by its reported actions. So it is less of a surprise to me when I get halfway through a book and suddenly there's a bit of visual description that might have conflicted with a previous assumption. That means I have to reread to find details, and then I notice how few details there are. Pratchett is a master at giving just the relevant detail to define a minor character, and also to emphasize, or to undercut, a major character. Details I haven't found lately include: what color is Vimes's hair? We know Carrot has red hair and Angua has ash-blonde hair. Regardless of what color Nobby's is, we can assume it looks brown now. Colon's? Not a clue. I don't even know whether he's balding, except for a lack of bald jokes about him. We get behavioral quirks, but color assumptions can only be made by who _doesn't_ react when they might have. So, I assume Colon and Nobby have dark hair because when they are in Klatch in Jingo, they manage to pass for more-or-less Klatchian from Some Other Village. If it weren't for the occasional red face, I could believe they were brown even before being weather-beaten from years of exposure.

 

[high eight]

I've always thought of Sham Harga as Klatchian, mainly because he reminds me of a Turkish short-order kebab cook I used to know.

 

[RathDarkblade]

I've often pictured Colon as somewhat red about the face, because of what Terry says about him - that if he wasn't a watchman, he would probably gravitate to some other job where rising early and having a red face and a tendency to sweat would be an advantage.*

Why do I bring this up? No idea. Just wishing to contribute, I guess.

___________________________________________________
* Possibly a sausage butcher, if I remember correctly.

 

[eternalmetal]

I don't often have a strong image of a character's appearance. Even when I have an image available, say from an actor or two (Vetinari has two available, for instance), it doesn't stay consistent. When the book has almost no description, I have a sort of generic human-shaped blob for a mental image of the character, but a blob which is imbued with the personality given by its reported actions. So it is less of a surprise to me when I get halfway through a book and suddenly there's a bit of visual description that might have conflicted with a previous assumption. That means I have to reread to find details, and then I notice how few details there are.

Heh, im the same way. I develop an internal image of their personality, but for some reason my brain tends not to be that specific with the more superficial parts of their image. Sometimes ill read some details about their looks, and ill go, 'damn'. Ill actually admit that now that ive seen some of the DW movies, I cant help but get the images out of my head, even if they conflicted with my old internal image. Im more of a concepts and ideas guy, and never really had a knack for visual representation.

Now I have to wrap my mind over the idea that Colon is actually a fat man with a red face. It all makes sense now, but I never viewed him like this at all in the past. Now I have to re-read some Watch novels

 

[=Tamar]

I don't think Colon always has a red face, just that he tends to get red under any kind of exertion. In Klatch, he and Nobby both pass quite easily as being from "some other village", though possibly the Discworld equivalent of Berbers. Although they are night watchmen, they get some sun during the summer on the way to and from the watch house, so I think they are somewhat tanned. With Nobby it's probably hard to tell under the grime.

 

[=Tamar]

Well, Mark liked the end of MAA, though how he could think Gaspode would ever stay with people who put a ribbon on him is beyond me. On to Soul Music. He'll hate the Curry Gardens but I expect he'll get a lot of the music puns.

 

[high eight]

Well, Mark liked the end of MAA, though how he could think Gaspode would ever stay with people who put a ribbon on him is beyond me. On to Soul Music. He'll hate the Curry Gardens but I expect he'll get a lot of the music puns.

You're right, he hated it.

He also completely flubbed Quoth the Raven's "I don't do the N word" comment, getting all offended without thinking about what N word it could possibly be that upsets a raven named Quoth....

 

[Tonyblack]

I have actually been to curry restaurants with spelling mistakes in the menu. This was back in the 70s and I can particularly remember one description that read "Very hot with bears".

 

[high eight]

I have actually been to curry restaurants with spelling mistakes in the menu. This was back in the 70s and I can particularly remember one description that read "Very hot with bears".

Terry probably pinched his version of the gag from Hoffnung's 'letters from Tyrolean holiday landlords' -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq-q6TcbHLE

He did get the 'N word' reference, btw. He just thought it was in poor taste and not very funny.

 

[=Tamar]

He also said it was kind of funny that the raven was named Quoth. I find that interesting because that joke is exactly what the raven was complaining about. I've read complaints from many people who have a name that other people find funny and everyone makes the same tired old joke about it. The raven is so tired of it that he refuses to say the word any more.

 

[raisindot]

The raven is so tired of it that he refuses to say the word "any more."

Is that an intentional Quoth joke? If so, very clever. :clap:

 

[=Tamar]

My subconscious is wittier than my conscious mind, but I'll accept the applause anyway.

 

[=Tamar]

I have actually been to curry restaurants with spelling mistakes in the menu. This was back in the 70s and I can particularly remember one description that read "Very hot with bears".

Did you find out what it was supposed to mean?

I don't do curry, so I don't go to curry restaurants, but I have seen many typos in restaurant menus of all kinds. They haven't stopped making them, either. Even the fancy laminated ones often have a lurking misspelling.