Neil Gaiman
- Thread starter Burkshifter
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Because all of you people endlessly discuss Gaiman's work, I decided to give him a try (although I read Good Omens many years ago).
First read American Gods. I thought it was very good, if a bit rambling in a shaggy dog story sort of way. One of those books where the author seems to be trying to cram as much of his knowledge of everything into the pages, leaving lots of loose bits around.
Now I'm reading Neverwhere, which is pretty good. The first thing that came to mind is that the characters of Mr. Croup and Mr. Vandemar totally remind me of Mr. Pin and Mr. Tulip, and I wonder if Pterry's comedy criminal duo is his nod to Gaiman's criminals? In Neverwhere, their team is called the Old Firm, in The Truth it's called the New Firm.
First read American Gods. I thought it was very good, if a bit rambling in a shaggy dog story sort of way. One of those books where the author seems to be trying to cram as much of his knowledge of everything into the pages, leaving lots of loose bits around.
Now I'm reading Neverwhere, which is pretty good. The first thing that came to mind is that the characters of Mr. Croup and Mr. Vandemar totally remind me of Mr. Pin and Mr. Tulip, and I wonder if Pterry's comedy criminal duo is his nod to Gaiman's criminals? In Neverwhere, their team is called the Old Firm, in The Truth it's called the New Firm.
@raisindot Both the Old Firm and the New Firm are archetype villains - the small, vicious, smart man, and the big dumb muscle, both wearing very nice suits. Both Terry & Neil were getting that from the same original source.
However, Mr Tulip's love of fine art could potentially have been influenced by Mr Croup & Vandermar's love of same... although what the latter two do with it is entirely different.
However, Mr Tulip's love of fine art could potentially have been influenced by Mr Croup & Vandermar's love of same... although what the latter two do with it is entirely different.
I know that the small man/large man criminal teams are criminal archtypes (probably originally sourced from comedy teams like Laurel and Hardy or, more likely Abbott and Costello), but I've never heard the terms "Old Firm" and "New Firm" used in reference to criminal syndicates--only to soccer teams (or the violent fans of soccer teams). Can't find any references to this on Google either.
This is from the Annotated Pratchett Files in reference to Pin and Tulip and "The Old Firm":
Full article here.
Full article here.
Indeed. While not all of these characters were criminals, you do see a double act in many villains. In Doctor Who, you have Mr Oak and Mr Quill (Fury from the Deep), Sabalom Glitz and Dibber (The Mysterious Planet), Ms Winters and Jellicoe (Robot), Solon and Condo (The Brain of Morbius)...need I go on? It's not exactly original. TV Tropes has an entire page called "Those Two Bad Guys".
[spoilers]
The history of two-man crime teams aside, Croup and Vandemer are so similar to Pin and Tulip in attitudes, speech patterns, and actions that it's hard for me to see how Pterry created his characters free of Gaiman's influence. Vandemer's obsessive habit of eating any crawling thing becomes Tulip's obsessive habit of trying to consume any inorganic powdery substance as drugs. Both Croup and Pin speak in an artificially "civilized" manner. Croup is literally a consumer of fine art (although Pterry makes Tulip the art expert, which is much funnier). And in the end, Croup trying to save his own life by leap-frogging over Vandemer becomes Pin's murder of his partner to save his own skin.
Pterry may claim that he wasn't influenced by Gaiman, but all of these literary similarities make it hard to believe he wasn't.
The history of two-man crime teams aside, Croup and Vandemer are so similar to Pin and Tulip in attitudes, speech patterns, and actions that it's hard for me to see how Pterry created his characters free of Gaiman's influence. Vandemer's obsessive habit of eating any crawling thing becomes Tulip's obsessive habit of trying to consume any inorganic powdery substance as drugs. Both Croup and Pin speak in an artificially "civilized" manner. Croup is literally a consumer of fine art (although Pterry makes Tulip the art expert, which is much funnier). And in the end, Croup trying to save his own life by leap-frogging over Vandemer becomes Pin's murder of his partner to save his own skin.
Pterry may claim that he wasn't influenced by Gaiman, but all of these literary similarities make it hard to believe he wasn't.
Again, that's not actually unique. I mentioned earlier Sabalom Glitz and Dibber. Glitz in particular attempts to speak in an artificially civilised manner, to sound more intelligent than he really is (okay, he's not a complete idiot, and manages to talk his way out of more than a few situations, but he tries to sound more intelligent than he is). To wit, one of his first conversations in The Mysterious Planet...
In addition, Shlubb and Klump, from Sin City, make (what I am sure) is their debut in 1996, four years before The Truth. And they, well, let's just put it this way: they have, as TV Tropes puts it, 'delusions of eloquence'. To wit...
Not that Terry Pratchett would have read any Sin City graphic novels, but I'm just saying, it's a pretty common type of stock character pairing.
In addition, Shlubb and Klump, from Sin City, make (what I am sure) is their debut in 1996, four years before The Truth. And they, well, let's just put it this way: they have, as TV Tropes puts it, 'delusions of eloquence'. To wit...
Not that Terry Pratchett would have read any Sin City graphic novels, but I'm just saying, it's a pretty common type of stock character pairing.
I'm really trying very hard to figure out what all the fuss is about with Gaiman. So far, I've read American Gods, Anansi Boys, Neverwhere and Stardust . All pleasant reads, by they all seem to have the same formula: Ordinary guy gets involves with fantasy/supernatural/gods, discovers he is part godlike/supernatural himself, discovers inner heroic qualities he never knew he had, ends up leaving the regular world for the fantasy realm. Other than American Gods, which was very good if a bit scattered, most of these don't really stand out in any way.
Do his other (adult) books continue this same formula? I'll read them, too, but in terms of this genre I wouldn't put him anywhere near Pterry or even similar authors like Chris Moore in terms of originality, wit and literary ability.
Do his other (adult) books continue this same formula? I'll read them, too, but in terms of this genre I wouldn't put him anywhere near Pterry or even similar authors like Chris Moore in terms of originality, wit and literary ability.
I do enjoy America Gods the most - but hadn't really thought about recurring themes. I just like his writing style.
But everyone is different and everyone has authors that they really 'click' with. I like Charles de Lint stories - but many would say that his urban fantasy books have very similar themes.
I suppose you could say that our beloved Mr Pratchett has a theme/formula. Most of his books are set on a fantasy world and usually involve wizard, witches, dragons, dwarfs and policemen. 
And a good number of Chris Moore's books usually revolve around vampires or monsters of some sort. I wasn't so keen on CMs his latest - Sacred Bleu - it took a while to get going and focussed too much on the art and not enough on the story.
I think NG always appears to have so many projects on the go (books, short stories, kids books, graphic novels, script writing) that the few proper novels that he does produce may well have similar themes. I'm not sure that makes him less of a writer. My kids both loved his latest kids book - Fortunately the milk - especially the Wumpires
But everyone is different and everyone has authors that they really 'click' with. I like Charles de Lint stories - but many would say that his urban fantasy books have very similar themes.
I suppose you could say that our beloved Mr Pratchett has a theme/formula. Most of his books are set on a fantasy world and usually involve wizard, witches, dragons, dwarfs and policemen.
And a good number of Chris Moore's books usually revolve around vampires or monsters of some sort. I wasn't so keen on CMs his latest - Sacred Bleu - it took a while to get going and focussed too much on the art and not enough on the story.
I think NG always appears to have so many projects on the go (books, short stories, kids books, graphic novels, script writing) that the few proper novels that he does produce may well have similar themes. I'm not sure that makes him less of a writer. My kids both loved his latest kids book - Fortunately the milk - especially the Wumpires
Gaiman and Cumberbatch in the same room!!
http://www.lettersofnote.com/2013/11/letters-live.html
Pretty impressive guest list.
http://www.lettersofnote.com/2013/11/letters-live.html
Pretty impressive guest list.
