SPOILERS Night Watch Discussion *spoilers*

[Jan Van Quirm]

Maybe it was the cigar butt Tina - some bit of trash anyway and Vimes deliberately chose to throw it over into the place where the AM HQ had been/is still when he got back to his rightful time slot and it was the same thing that Lu Tze was puzzled over, seemingly back in the past

Will look for it later myself as I'm struggling with getting my new printer/scanner up and running

 

[swreader]

Sorry Jan, wrong again. Sam/Keel throws the match and cigar butt down just before he goes back over the wall after his 2nd visit. Lu-Tze has promised to get him something real to hold in his hand. And Sam has promised to take Carcer with him when he leaves. The garden starts to move before he goes over the wall--and it moves because Sam/Keel is taking the required steps. After he goes Lu-Tze says he will send out the monks to find the cigar case, rather than use any further manipulation of time. After Sam/Keel leaves, Lu-Tze tells Qu that he is not moving the garden, and they watch the action of the cigar butt work its way to the center of the Garden of Inner-City Tranquility. This garden does seem to work in the same way as the mandela in Thief of Time.

And as Tina pointed out, Sam throws a new cigar butt down on the way home after catching Carcer and talking with Vetinari at the church yard. And once again, he hears the scaly sound he heard the first time--I suspect the garden moves (like the mandela) again because Commander Vimes has successfully brought Carcer out of the past (and to justice) while Sam/Keel gave the right orders in the old time.

Incidentally, it's a beer bottle that gets thrown, not a beer can.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Nods - OK but the garden can and does move so they can have it any time they need to have it

 

[kakaze]

We don't know if he was actually wearing the lilac in the original timeline.

Uh-uh. The following conversation happened in the original timeline, just after Vimes arrested Carcer:

Vimes stopped at the entrance gates. Overhead, another lamp flickered. He dropped Carcer to the ground.
“You knew? You bloody well knew, didn't you?”
“Not until, oh, one second ago,” said Vetinari. “As one man to another, commander, I must ask you: did you ever wonder why I wore the lilac?”
“Yeah. I wondered,” said Vimes.
“But you never asked.”
“No. I never asked,” said Vimes shortly. “It's a flower. Anyone can wear a flower.”
“At this time? In this place?”
“Tell me, then.”
“Then I'll recall the day I was sent on an urgent errand,” said Vetinari. “I had to save the life of a man. Not a usual errand for an Assassin although, in fact, I had already saved it once before.” He gave Vimes a quizzical look.
“You'd shot a man who was aiming a crossbow?” said Vimes.
“An inspired guess, commander! Yes. I have an eye for the…unique. But now I was fighting time. The streets were blocked. Chaos and confusion were everywhere, and it wasn't as if I even knew where he could be found. In the end, I took to the rooftops. And thus I came at last to Cable Street, where there was a different sort of confusion.”
“Tell me what you saw,” said Vimes.
“I saw a man called Carcer…vanish. And I saw a man called John Keel die. At least, I saw him dead.”
“Really,” said Vimes.
“I joined the fight. I snatched up a lilac bloom from a fallen man and, I have to say, held it in my mouth. I'd like to think I made some difference; I certainly killed four men, although I take no particular pride in that. They were thugs, bullies. No real skill. Besides, their leader had apparently fled, and what morale they had had gone with him. The men with the lilac, I have to say, fought like tigers. Not skilfully, I'll admit, but when they saw that their leader was down they took the other side to pieces. Astonishing.

As you can see, Vimes had previously "wondered" about Vetinari's habit of wearing the lilac on that day.

About the cigar butt and beer bottle, I think they don't matter. I think Lu Tze just acted annoyed so Vimes would stop persueing a pointless digression to their conversation.

So why didn't Lu Tzu just tell younger Vimes about Carcer and where to find him easily in the future, and avoid having older Vimes & Carcer being sent back in time and getting Keel killed ahead of schedule?

 

[Tonyblack]

You're right about Vetinari and the lilac - I'd somehow missed that. Bang goes that theory then.

 

[swreader]

About the cigar butt and beer bottle, I think they don't matter. I think Lu Tze just acted annoyed so Vimes would stop persueing a pointless digression to their conversation.

So why didn't Lu Tzu just tell younger Vimes about Carcer and where to find him easily in the future, and avoid having older Vimes & Carcer being sent back in time and getting Keel killed ahead of schedule?

First, the beer bottle is mentioned only in Sam's first visit, but the beer bottle is just Terry having a small joke, while building up the garden as representative of the pattern of life and history--a point which will become important later. This time the spell in the garden restores Sam to the tranquility to accept the actions of the Monks of History and to accept what has happened and that what he does now matters.

"So what people do matters!" said Sweeper. "People invent other laws. What they do is important! The Abbott's very excited about this.... It means the multiverse isn't infinite, and people's choices are far more vital than they think. They can, by what they do change the universe."

Terry is doing two things with the passage here--one is setting up in a way the fact that the Garden is indeed a Mandala (like he does with the small one he shows Lobsang on the way to Ank-Morpork). Second, he is explaining why it is so important to history that Sam act as Vimes.

Sam is old enough and wise enough to understand and accept the existence of the Monks of History even if he doesn't grasp all the details of what they do. And he knows that what he does as "Keel" will affect how Vimes grows up.

There are two answers to your last question. First, Terry chooses to write the book in this fashion (with the time travel) partially to enjoy telling us about Vimes's younger self and the world 30 years ago. But he also uses this book to stress the importance of decisions and actions. Your question then becomes irrelevant, since there would be no book then.

The fact that the Garden/Mandala begins to move when Sam tosses his cigar butt down in the 2nd visit is a sign that things are changing in the world. The two monks, watching the garden shifting by Sam's action of tossing the cigar butt and ..."felt the fingers of History spreading out and into the world."

 

[Tonyblack]

Getting away somewhat from the time-travel aspect of this book - I find it interesting that the new boss (Snapcase) turns out to be pretty much like the old boss (Winder). It's amazing how often people seem to vote in someone just as bad as the last one.

The whole thing about calling out the troops to deal with a relatively peaceful protest and thus escalating it into a major riot, is something that keeps on happening even today. Terry seems to be pointing out the way that people insist on repeating history.

 

[raisindot]

Getting away somewhat from the time-travel aspect of this book - I find it interesting that the new boss (Snapcase) turns out to be pretty much like the old boss (Winder). It's amazing how often people seem to vote in someone just as bad as the last one.

So true. Maybe my memory is goin' bad, but doesn't someone (Vimes, maybe?) say, at some point, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" or some other lyric check from The Who's "Won't Get Fooled Again."?

Jeff in Boston

 

[CrysaniaMajere]

I find it interesting that the new boss (Snapcase) turns out to be pretty much like the old boss (Winder). It's amazing how often people seem to vote in someone just as bad as the last one.

and by saying that, he also tells us once more how Vetinari is a good ruler now. He was presented as a tyrant, and they talk about him like that still now, but he's not bad as they were bad. they thought about themselves, vetinari thinks about the city, how to make it progress, how to maintain peace, and finally even vimes realise how difficult it is.
this one they didn't choose him, but he turned out better than the ones they had chosen for themselves

p.s.what a nice discussion you've made here. couldn't read it before, didn't have time, finally i've found a few minutes more

 

[Tonyblack]

Exactly Chrys!

The previous Patricians have been interested in the job to make them more rich and powerful than they were. Vetinari seems to have a real love for the city - maybe something like Vimes loves it.

 

[swreader]

And the time travel aspect explains a bit of why Vetinari doesn't think much of Sam originally. He's only met him as the youngster--not Keel. And it's only at the end that everything clicks into place for both of them.

It struck me as interesting that on his second time to be there thirty years ago, Sam/Keel thinks so much more like Vetinari (down to the number of carts coming into the city) and wishing that he had a couple of trolls or dwarfs along to help the Watch--things which Vetinari has done to improve the city.

Has it ocurred to anyone else to wonder who let Captain Rust out of the cells where Sam had him locked up?

 

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

I find it interesting that the new boss (Snapcase) turns out to be pretty much like the old boss (Winder). It's amazing how often people seem to vote in someone just as bad as the last one.

The Who(m) says it beautifully in a song.... "Won't get Fooled Again" Here comes the new boss, Same as the Old Boss... Good song. good truth... Lewis Black is correct, We are screwed either way, you just close your eyes, roll the dice and hope for the best. *shrug*

 

[CrysaniaMajere]

The previous Patricians have been interested in the job to make them more rich and powerful than they were.
Vetinari seems to have a real love for the city

yes
first sentence : how things really are around here
second sentence: why i'd love and i dream of the day we'll have a vetinari too

p.s.ehm...i don't even remember rust...i guess some things got stuck in my mind, and some other can't stay even for 5 minutes... there's no room for everything i'll go refresh my memory

 

[Tonyblack]

Talking of Rust (who actually had been an old boyfriend of Sybil's), I loved the bit where Sam considers the amount of lives he could save by getting rid of Rust once and for all. It's a bit like the idea of travelling back in history and killing Hitler before he came to power.

Nice idea that it might seem to get rid of rust, it would do untold damage to the timeline. History is a fact - you can't change it - you can only (hopefully) learn by it and not make the same mistakes again.

 

[poohcarrot]

Having not contributed greatly to this discussion but avidly read all the comments, I'd just like to say that nobody has so far convinced me that this is a great book. As stated earlier, I love it, but it's not in my top 5.

In the Pyramids discussion that is next, I'm currently working on a theory that will explain why I think Pyramids is one of TP's greatest books, explain the reasons why some people don't like it, and even explain why TP doesn't sell so well in the US. 8)

Come on! If you all rate this book so highly, convince me that I should too.

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

NW, One of Terry's darker books,but I do like Pyramids not quite in my top five but very close.

 

[raisindot]

In the Pyramids discussion that is next, I'm currently working on a theory that will explain why I think Pyramids is one of TP's greatest books, explain the reasons why some people don't like it, and even explain why TP doesn't sell so well in the US. 8)

I am very much looking forward to reading your theory, Pooh. Will it include things like Planck length, super symmetry, and closed string loops?



Jeff in boston

 

[poohcarrot]

Nope.

So far it involves a banana and a football match.

 

[swreader]

Pooh, I get the impression that the books you like have lots of semi-slapstick comedy bits--and that's why you like them (though I may be totally wrong about this). On the other hand, I suspect that one of the reasons you don't much like Night Watch is that it isn't funny -- at all.

One of the things I enjoy and admire about this book is that it is a technical tour de force weaving together the themes of time as expressed in two different books. It also gives Terry a chance to acquaint us with the kind of world which both Sam and Vetinari grew up in--a world of deceit, corruption, and general depravity--with some specific differences. It's a world much like the medieval worlds, I suspect, with all of the corruption of the old royalty of AM, but none of the later virtues. It explains a great deal about the nature of Vetinari and Vimes as we have come to know them in the later books.

 

[CrysaniaMajere]

I like Night Watch but it's not my favourite, although i like it more than Pyramids
Anyway, as Swreader said this book is not funny, it's hard, kids die, when they entered the torture room I almost felt sick, but it's a very city-book.
And talking about the book, when everybody let the old Patrician die, they were convinced by the others? I mean, the few who at the beginning were loyal to him, they were just "convinced"?
What happened then to the other Patrician? Snapcase, if I remember right?

One thing I don't like about the book, or maybe about Vimes, is:
why is he so angry at Vetinari in the end? Ok, he had maybe the worst day of his life, but he was able to remain himself with everybody else, he could calm down in front of Carcer and not kill him, but he got furious with Vetinari. Why? Just because he doesn't like him? But things like "that day" don't happen with Vetinari, so why all the anger? why the "how dare you" and the "I warned you" parts?
What has he done? And it was Carrot who wanted to promote him every time, and by the way Vimes likes his promotion so he can order people around, he enjoys it, so why the "you can't bribe me with another promotion" at Vetinari?