SPOILERS Night Watch Discussion *spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
I was watching a news report about the troubles in Iran and it struck me that there were some similarities with NW. The demonstrators were apparently attacking and burning police stations and some police were joining the demonstrators.
Let's hope that they eventually get a Vetinari rather than a Snapcase.
Let's hope that they eventually get a Vetinari rather than a Snapcase.
A bit late in this discussion, but...Dr. Lawn question
This thought never really occurred to me until I was re-reading Thud!, but, doesn't it seem a bit odd, at the end of the book, when Vimes goes to see Dr. Lawn to help in Sybil's delivery, that Lawn identifies Vimes as Keel?
If we assume that twenty years have passed since the "lilac events" that Vimes/Keel made sure still happened, wouldn't one think that, somewhere along the way, Lawn would have seen Vimes somewhere, either in a photo in the Times, on the street, or somewhere else, and made that connection?
I know, I know, taking this all too seriously. Dramatic license needs to triumph over logic in these situations.
J-I-B
This thought never really occurred to me until I was re-reading Thud!, but, doesn't it seem a bit odd, at the end of the book, when Vimes goes to see Dr. Lawn to help in Sybil's delivery, that Lawn identifies Vimes as Keel?
If we assume that twenty years have passed since the "lilac events" that Vimes/Keel made sure still happened, wouldn't one think that, somewhere along the way, Lawn would have seen Vimes somewhere, either in a photo in the Times, on the street, or somewhere else, and made that connection?
I know, I know, taking this all too seriously. Dramatic license needs to triumph over logic in these situations.
J-I-B
The past is changed and memory has to match - the 'present' Lawn doesn't remember Vimes as Keel until after Vimes gets back to his right Duke of Ankh timeline in A-M.
Before that Keel was Keel and so he's the one who Lawn remembers up until the amended timeline kicks in - otherwise you have anomaly with Lawn recognising someone who wasn't in his own past timeline. Vimes only has his teenage memory of lilac day for the period before he and Carcer went back - Lawn has the 'first run' memory to match as well. So there was always a not-Vimes John Keel - until there wasn't anymore?
My head hurts....
Before that Keel was Keel and so he's the one who Lawn remembers up until the amended timeline kicks in - otherwise you have anomaly with Lawn recognising someone who wasn't in his own past timeline. Vimes only has his teenage memory of lilac day for the period before he and Carcer went back - Lawn has the 'first run' memory to match as well. So there was always a not-Vimes John Keel - until there wasn't anymore?
My head hurts....
Jan Van Quirm said:
The past is changed and memory has to match - the 'present' Lawn doesn't remember Vimes as Keel until after Vimes gets back to his right Duke of Ankh timeline in A-M.
Before that Keel was Keel and so he's the one who Lawn remembers up until the amended timeline kicks in - otherwise you have anomaly with Lawn recognising someone who wasn't in his own past timeline. Vimes only has his teenage memory of lilac day for the period before he and Carcer went back - Lawn has the 'first run' memory to match as well. So there was always a not-Vimes John Keel - until there wasn't anymore?
My head hurts....
Before that Keel was Keel and so he's the one who Lawn remembers up until the amended timeline kicks in - otherwise you have anomaly with Lawn recognising someone who wasn't in his own past timeline. Vimes only has his teenage memory of lilac day for the period before he and Carcer went back - Lawn has the 'first run' memory to match as well. So there was always a not-Vimes John Keel - until there wasn't anymore?
My head hurts....
J-I-B
, that amended timeline continues on for twenty years
Think of it this way - 2 timelines, but not necessarily the same length in 'real happening time' which is the 'present'.
#1 timeline is the original and has been running in real happening time for 30 odd years (or however long it is since the 1st lilac day) where the authentic and unique John Keel was always himself and that's who's remembered by Dr. Lawn up until the time storm, because it was John Keel - the same John Keel who has his own grave and stone and is still the same dead John Keel after Vimes is returned to real happening time by virtue of the History Monks doing the slick switch.
#2 timeline runs from when the storm regurgitates Carcer and Sam back in time - from that moment in real happening time, #2 timeline replaces #1 timeline in the future.
When Vimes and Carcer return to A-M in real happening time #2 timeline is now running instead of #1, effectively wiping everyone's memory of #1 timeline - from that point in real happening time everyone's memory of Keel is the older Vimes 'model'. I feel v. groggy.
So in effect time is memory or perhaps experience? :twisted:
#1 timeline ceases to have happened when Carcer and Vime return to their proper real happening timeline, and so when they come back, #2 timeline is now embedded and has always happened.
#2 timeline - for those who knew John Keel well enough - begins 30 odd years ago, from when Vimes takes the place of the unique John Keel who dies in a back alley and is then taken into the protective custody of Lu Tze and several days later put back into #2 timeline when Vimes returns to his rightful time slot.
#2 timeline is only a few days old, but is now embedded in Vimes own memory and in Lawn's and Vetinari's as happening 30 odd years in the past. The Watch members present at lilac day will only remember young Sam being there with them during the revolution because John Keel's impersonator was John Keel near enough and because they didn't know the Duke of Ankh back then. Remember people are v. good at not recalling stuff that will upset them, so it's young Sam and not the Duke that Nobby and Colon fought with on the barricades
Lawn's and Vetinari's memories are now updated and cognisant, but only because they didn't know young Sam, so they don't have such a huge conflict to get over
#1 timeline is the original and has been running in real happening time for 30 odd years (or however long it is since the 1st lilac day) where the authentic and unique John Keel was always himself and that's who's remembered by Dr. Lawn up until the time storm, because it was John Keel - the same John Keel who has his own grave and stone and is still the same dead John Keel after Vimes is returned to real happening time by virtue of the History Monks doing the slick switch.
#2 timeline runs from when the storm regurgitates Carcer and Sam back in time - from that moment in real happening time, #2 timeline replaces #1 timeline in the future.
When Vimes and Carcer return to A-M in real happening time #2 timeline is now running instead of #1, effectively wiping everyone's memory of #1 timeline - from that point in real happening time everyone's memory of Keel is the older Vimes 'model'.
I feel v. groggy.So in effect time is memory or perhaps experience? :twisted:
#1 timeline ceases to have happened when Carcer and Vime return to their proper real happening timeline, and so when they come back, #2 timeline is now embedded and has always happened.
#2 timeline - for those who knew John Keel well enough - begins 30 odd years ago, from when Vimes takes the place of the unique John Keel who dies in a back alley and is then taken into the protective custody of Lu Tze and several days later put back into #2 timeline when Vimes returns to his rightful time slot.
#2 timeline is only a few days old, but is now embedded in Vimes own memory and in Lawn's and Vetinari's as happening 30 odd years in the past. The Watch members present at lilac day will only remember young Sam being there with them during the revolution because John Keel's impersonator was John Keel near enough and because they didn't know the Duke of Ankh back then. Remember people are v. good at not recalling stuff that will upset them, so it's young Sam and not the Duke that Nobby and Colon fought with on the barricades
Lawn's and Vetinari's memories are now updated and cognisant, but only because they didn't know young Sam, so they don't have such a huge conflict to get over
Partly yes, but Vetinari and Lawn never had the eyeball connection with young Sam.
19 year old Sam wasn't on their radar at all back in time, but they both knew John Keel himself on the #1 Timeline and the Sam 'Duke' Keel from the #2 Timeline Vimes version of Keel. So there's no conflict at all with their memory of lilac time when #2 timeline kicks in and can see Vimes in his post time travel state (well Vetinari at least sees him immediately with the eye injury etc and so realises the #2 truth).
For the Watch members it's different and essentially it's their recall of young Sam for 30 odd years as Sam their comrade who's grown up with them (in both timelines of course - that doesn't alter in the slightest) and so, with the passage of #1 timeline (which is no different for them from #2 timeline) and that long association they've never put 2 and 2 together because Keel has always been the Keel in the graveyard from their memory of him and Sam's grown with them - they wouldn't even remember Keel that well in real happening time and have no reason to question their own eyes after such a long time or if they did would only think that he vaguely looks like Keel. Familiarity breeds expectations and they just wouldn't see it except as a strange co-incidence
19 year old Sam wasn't on their radar at all back in time, but they both knew John Keel himself on the #1 Timeline and the Sam 'Duke' Keel from the #2 Timeline Vimes version of Keel. So there's no conflict at all with their memory of lilac time when #2 timeline kicks in and can see Vimes in his post time travel state (well Vetinari at least sees him immediately with the eye injury etc and so realises the #2 truth).
For the Watch members it's different and essentially it's their recall of young Sam for 30 odd years as Sam their comrade who's grown up with them (in both timelines of course - that doesn't alter in the slightest) and so, with the passage of #1 timeline (which is no different for them from #2 timeline) and that long association they've never put 2 and 2 together because Keel has always been the Keel in the graveyard from their memory of him and Sam's grown with them - they wouldn't even remember Keel that well in real happening time and have no reason to question their own eyes after such a long time or if they did would only think that he vaguely looks like Keel. Familiarity breeds expectations and they just wouldn't see it except as a strange co-incidence
As I've recently stated in the other diskussion, then this along with Fifth elephant are my two favourite book. In My contry we used to have a written assignment meant to make us aware of what was expected when we got to universuty. I wrote in English about this book. It was the second time I read it and have to say that it was very interesting to try and analyse it and see it in a different light because the first time I read it was purely for entertainment. I juest ended up appreciating it even more.
My problem is I have a very mild case of adhd, so I can't concentrate for long periods of time and I use a day to read very few pages. Hence I prefer to read the new books so I can keep up. Heck, I think I'm only halfway through his books, but then again, it has been a while since I last read anything that wasn't university related :-s.
This is perhaps, my favourite book of the entire series. It has everything I expect from a DW story; humour, oppression, the underdog fighting back, darkness, personal turmoil and many other aspects. I loved Vimes stretching his feet out into another person whilst demonstrating everything we love about him. One particular part had me giggling for ages.
The guards decide Keel/Vimes is being a bit of a pain and decide to set him up for thieving. The locker scene in which a brick is 'found' in his locker, and his subsequent explanation that he was 'saving up for a house' had me roaring with laughter.
I realise this an old discussion but I haven't been on here long and wanted to partake.
The guards decide Keel/Vimes is being a bit of a pain and decide to set him up for thieving. The locker scene in which a brick is 'found' in his locker, and his subsequent explanation that he was 'saving up for a house' had me roaring with laughter.
I realise this an old discussion but I haven't been on here long and wanted to partake.
Very good question. I think that, in spite of all of Vimes' exhortations of justice and duty, that he's ultimately motivated by anger that manifests itself in many forms. Anger at the aristocracy that 'gets away with murder' and looks down at his humble origins. Anger at the criminals who flout the 'order' that he is sworn to protect. Anger at people who think they can outwit him or keep him from knowing what's going on. Vimes, like Vetinari, is a control freak, but, unlike Vetinari, Vimes takes ruptures in the 'order' he is trying to maintain very personally. His pursuit of wrongdoers more often than not becomes an act of personal vengeance--he needs to capture and punish those who would dare disrupt his city or try to hide crimes from him or use their power and wealth to evade his brand of justice.
Once he's angered, Vimes is motivated by the ages-old copper's thrill of the chase. The end result is less important than the chase itself. Quite often Vimes has no idea of what he is going to do once he captures his man, but this doesn't matter when he's in the thick of the hot pursuit.
AVAST, YE SPOILERS AHEAD!
It's this anger that is sorely missing in Snuff, and a reason why I think it's the worst Vimes/Watch book. Vimes has become so powerful and entrenched in his wealth and position that nothing can truly anger him anymore. The whole murder mystery is little more than a game for him, a hot pursuit diversion to stem off the boredom of down time. In spite of his 'outrage' at the treatment of the goblins, you never get a sense that this shakes him to the core.
Once he's angered, Vimes is motivated by the ages-old copper's thrill of the chase. The end result is less important than the chase itself. Quite often Vimes has no idea of what he is going to do once he captures his man, but this doesn't matter when he's in the thick of the hot pursuit.
AVAST, YE SPOILERS AHEAD!
It's this anger that is sorely missing in Snuff, and a reason why I think it's the worst Vimes/Watch book. Vimes has become so powerful and entrenched in his wealth and position that nothing can truly anger him anymore. The whole murder mystery is little more than a game for him, a hot pursuit diversion to stem off the boredom of down time. In spite of his 'outrage' at the treatment of the goblins, you never get a sense that this shakes him to the core.
Good point, anger does seem to lie behind quite alot of his actions, but isn't his anger often fuelled by injustice and what he sees as wrong. He clearly hates aristocracy and a particular class of privelaged but could this be because he doesn't like the fact they are privelaged and prejudiced rather than because he is angry?
That said, if he wasn't a copper he'd most definately be a thief
That said, if he wasn't a copper he'd most definately be a thief
