SPOILERS Night Watch Discussion *spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
I've been on a Terry kick lately... finished re-reading "The Wee Free Men", "Jingo", "Going Postal" and now "Night Watch". Awesome! Here are some of my thoughts...
Moments of Brilliance
* There is lot of play around visibility and invisibility in Vetinari's storyline (and in the novel in general, actually). Vetinari 'gets' invisibility more than the other assassins. He realises that wearing black-only clothes, as is the Guild policy, makes one MORE visible, and that animal-inspired colour and pattern are more effective at creating camouflage. Black actually makes his fellow assassins stand out like a sore thumb. Fast-forward to his Patricianship, and he is noted for ONLY wearing black clothes. As an assassin he wanted invisibility. As the Patrician he wants to be highly visible. Genius. Plus, it justifies how he was able to observe the final events of Vimes' sojourn in the past without Vimes noticing he was there.
* In a rare case of Fridge Heartwarming, consider that Vimes and his Treacle Mine Road allies have spent the last thirty years feeling somber every 25th of May. But from now on, those who know Vimes well won't see it solely as a day to be mourned, because it's also Young Sam's birthday.
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Moments of Horror
* Just take a second to imagine what must have had to happen to the sweet, optimistic, puppy-dog young Vimes to turn him into the bitter, self-loathing, apathetic alcoholic that we remember from “Guards! Guards!”. At least we know he eventually gets better.
* What Vimes and the gang find in the Unmentionables' dungeons. A woman who'd gone into labour, people who'd been tortured and people who'd been mind-raped... including some who could not walk or did not understand that they were free. I could not help crying when I read about how Vimes removed his knife and... "gave what little help he could."
I sincerely hope that I'd never have to make a decision like that. :-(
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Moments of Pure Funny
* A hilarious sequence involving a barricade, a stupid soldier, and a somewhat more intelligent commander.
"If you listen, you will realize that it is merely the national anthem sung rather badly."
"Can't have rebels singing that, sir!"
"Singing the national anthem and waving the flag while suspicious, are not, in themselves, acts of treason."
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* Detritus' training song for the new recruits:
Now we sing dis stupid song!
Sing it as we run along!
Why we sing dis we don't know!
We can't make the words rhyme properly!
Sound off!
One, two!
Sound off!
Many, lots!
Sound off!
Er, what?
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* Venturi and Selachii at the party — as Arch Enemies they agree on nothing, but etiquette demands that they are polite to one another and, at least at social gatherings, talk without getting into an argument. They solve this by only talking about things it's completely impossible for even them to disagree about:
Selachii: This is a party.
Venturi: Indeed. I see you are standing upright.
Selachii: Indeed. So are you, I see.
Venturi: Indeed. Indeed. On that subject, I notice many others are doing the same thing.
Selachii: Which is not to say that the horizontal position does not have its merits when it comes to, for example, sleeping.
Venturi: Quite so. Obviously that would not be done here.
Selachii: Oh, indeed. Indeed.
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* Death to Lord Winder: YOU HAVE REACHED THE END OF CAKE.
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* Many of the soldiers sent against the barricade come from the very neighborhoods behind the barricade. This makes their job more difficult, as their grandmothers are up on the barricade, threatening to tell everyone about what they did when they were eleven...
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* You Do Not Drop Your Mates In The Cacky. Full stop.
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Anyway, I've been going on for a while. What do you think, hmm?
Moments of Brilliance
* There is lot of play around visibility and invisibility in Vetinari's storyline (and in the novel in general, actually). Vetinari 'gets' invisibility more than the other assassins. He realises that wearing black-only clothes, as is the Guild policy, makes one MORE visible, and that animal-inspired colour and pattern are more effective at creating camouflage. Black actually makes his fellow assassins stand out like a sore thumb. Fast-forward to his Patricianship, and he is noted for ONLY wearing black clothes. As an assassin he wanted invisibility. As the Patrician he wants to be highly visible. Genius. Plus, it justifies how he was able to observe the final events of Vimes' sojourn in the past without Vimes noticing he was there.
* In a rare case of Fridge Heartwarming, consider that Vimes and his Treacle Mine Road allies have spent the last thirty years feeling somber every 25th of May. But from now on, those who know Vimes well won't see it solely as a day to be mourned, because it's also Young Sam's birthday.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moments of Horror
* Just take a second to imagine what must have had to happen to the sweet, optimistic, puppy-dog young Vimes to turn him into the bitter, self-loathing, apathetic alcoholic that we remember from “Guards! Guards!”. At least we know he eventually gets better.
* What Vimes and the gang find in the Unmentionables' dungeons. A woman who'd gone into labour, people who'd been tortured and people who'd been mind-raped... including some who could not walk or did not understand that they were free. I could not help crying when I read about how Vimes removed his knife and... "gave what little help he could."
I sincerely hope that I'd never have to make a decision like that. :-(
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moments of Pure Funny
* A hilarious sequence involving a barricade, a stupid soldier, and a somewhat more intelligent commander.
"If you listen, you will realize that it is merely the national anthem sung rather badly."
"Can't have rebels singing that, sir!"
"Singing the national anthem and waving the flag while suspicious, are not, in themselves, acts of treason."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Detritus' training song for the new recruits:
Now we sing dis stupid song!
Sing it as we run along!
Why we sing dis we don't know!
We can't make the words rhyme properly!
Sound off!
One, two!
Sound off!
Many, lots!
Sound off!
Er, what?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Venturi and Selachii at the party — as Arch Enemies they agree on nothing, but etiquette demands that they are polite to one another and, at least at social gatherings, talk without getting into an argument. They solve this by only talking about things it's completely impossible for even them to disagree about:
Selachii: This is a party.
Venturi: Indeed. I see you are standing upright.
Selachii: Indeed. So are you, I see.
Venturi: Indeed. Indeed. On that subject, I notice many others are doing the same thing.
Selachii: Which is not to say that the horizontal position does not have its merits when it comes to, for example, sleeping.
Venturi: Quite so. Obviously that would not be done here.
Selachii: Oh, indeed. Indeed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Death to Lord Winder: YOU HAVE REACHED THE END OF CAKE.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Many of the soldiers sent against the barricade come from the very neighborhoods behind the barricade. This makes their job more difficult, as their grandmothers are up on the barricade, threatening to tell everyone about what they did when they were eleven...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* You Do Not Drop Your Mates In The Cacky. Full stop.
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Anyway, I've been going on for a while. What do you think, hmm?
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Night Watch is one of Pterry's best books, but, oddly enough, I find it one of the most difficult to re-read. Not because of some of the scenes you mentioned, but because it just doesn't "read" as easily as some of his other books. I feel the same way about Monstrous Regiment and Unseen Academicals.
It probably is (along with MR and parts of Small Gods) Pterry's most "serious" book. But its story and characters are very strong.
The scenes I liked the most were:
Vimes' initial encounters with Lu-Tze--talk about a great pairing.
The "ginger beer" trick. I was surprised that this appears to be a totally original invention, since there doesn't seem to be any "reference" to a similar track on the interwebs.
The scene where Vimes finds the silver cigar case that Sybil gave him, and suddenly realizes that all the "fun" he's been having in the past is an illusion, and creates incredible guilt for not thinking about his "future family" and inspires him to "right" everything.
The final scene with Carcer in the cemetery.
It probably is (along with MR and parts of Small Gods) Pterry's most "serious" book. But its story and characters are very strong.
The scenes I liked the most were:
Vimes' initial encounters with Lu-Tze--talk about a great pairing.
The "ginger beer" trick. I was surprised that this appears to be a totally original invention, since there doesn't seem to be any "reference" to a similar track on the interwebs.
The scene where Vimes finds the silver cigar case that Sybil gave him, and suddenly realizes that all the "fun" he's been having in the past is an illusion, and creates incredible guilt for not thinking about his "future family" and inspires him to "right" everything.
The final scene with Carcer in the cemetery.
I'm also surprised that this is a completely original invention. Is it? Does anyone else know? *wonders*
For those of you who aren't aware what the "ginger beer trick" actually involves - here's a quote from the TV Tropes page for this book (I edited it slightly to make it more readable):
"Terry eventually did reveal what the 'Ginger Beer Trick' actually is, although he despaired a bit that people actually had to be told. You shake it up really good to get the fizz going, then you stick it up the poor bastard's nose. Ouch. For those familiar only with ginger ale, ginger beer is a different - and much HOTTER - type of drink."
Traditional ginger beer is naturally sweetened and carbonated, and is usually non-alcoholic. It is produced by the natural fermentation of prepared ginger spice, yeast and sugar. It certainly is much spicier than ginger ale... 'ouch' indeed!
For those of you who aren't aware what the "ginger beer trick" actually involves - here's a quote from the TV Tropes page for this book (I edited it slightly to make it more readable):
"Terry eventually did reveal what the 'Ginger Beer Trick' actually is, although he despaired a bit that people actually had to be told. You shake it up really good to get the fizz going, then you stick it up the poor bastard's nose. Ouch. For those familiar only with ginger ale, ginger beer is a different - and much HOTTER - type of drink."
Traditional ginger beer is naturally sweetened and carbonated, and is usually non-alcoholic. It is produced by the natural fermentation of prepared ginger spice, yeast and sugar. It certainly is much spicier than ginger ale... 'ouch' indeed!
The ginger beer trick is one of those things that is actually kind of scary when you don't know what it entails. If nothing else, Ferret's response when Vimes pretends to torture the other two Unmentionables is kind of chilling. Hilarious because of Vimes' scam, but chilling.
I agree it's one of his best books - I personally think it's his best marriage of extremely dark material and gut-busting comedy - though I differ from you in that I find it perfectly fine on a re-read. If anything, I love revisiting the book; however much I glean from it, either the story is impressive enough in scope to demand extra attention, or I pick up something new every time.
Night Watch probably is a bit too heavy with its social commentary, but it's written so engagingly that I think it adds far more than it subtracts. The two that stand out for me are the discussion of Captain Swing's history and the explanation of the Dolly Sisters Massacre. The cynical insights clinch the deal for me, especially the more sardonic asides and comments.
Stuff like:
- Vimes pointing out how craniometrics would be "amazingly" proven right after the victims are passed on to Swing's cronies and their "less sophisticated tools of enquiry".
- Vimes giving this psychological explanation for why coppers have power over the public: secret guilt, which people assume those coppers can see written on their heads. Concluding with: "You couldn't, of course. But neither were you supposed to drag them off the streets and smash their fingers with a hammer until they told you what it was."
- Vimes noting how the historians keep saying such-and-such group (the crowd, the soldiers) shouldn't have been present and that's what caused the Dolly Sisters Massacre. After explaining why each one was likely there, he sarcastically concludes "Ah, that's right; no one should have been there". Reminded me of that one quotation (I forget where from) about how the only way to avoid committing a crime would be to sit indoors with hands on the table, and even then you'd still be guilty of loitering.
It's just a wonderful blending of darkness and comedy. And drama: one of the more troubling passages in the book is the bit when Sam Vimes goes to the History Monks and is basically on the verge of a breakdown, having finally grasped the magnitude of what's about to happen and why. Seeing him so strained is always tough because it's so easy to get into his mind and understand why he's struggling not to be overwhelmed by his own cynicism and his desire to right wrongs, on top of his inability to grasp the sheer weirdness of time travel. And damn, when he gets his drive back later on, it is a beautiful (and hilarious) turning point.
An absolutely fantastic book.
I agree it's one of his best books - I personally think it's his best marriage of extremely dark material and gut-busting comedy - though I differ from you in that I find it perfectly fine on a re-read. If anything, I love revisiting the book; however much I glean from it, either the story is impressive enough in scope to demand extra attention, or I pick up something new every time.
Night Watch probably is a bit too heavy with its social commentary, but it's written so engagingly that I think it adds far more than it subtracts. The two that stand out for me are the discussion of Captain Swing's history and the explanation of the Dolly Sisters Massacre. The cynical insights clinch the deal for me, especially the more sardonic asides and comments.
Stuff like:
- Vimes pointing out how craniometrics would be "amazingly" proven right after the victims are passed on to Swing's cronies and their "less sophisticated tools of enquiry".
- Vimes giving this psychological explanation for why coppers have power over the public: secret guilt, which people assume those coppers can see written on their heads. Concluding with: "You couldn't, of course. But neither were you supposed to drag them off the streets and smash their fingers with a hammer until they told you what it was."
- Vimes noting how the historians keep saying such-and-such group (the crowd, the soldiers) shouldn't have been present and that's what caused the Dolly Sisters Massacre. After explaining why each one was likely there, he sarcastically concludes "Ah, that's right; no one should have been there". Reminded me of that one quotation (I forget where from) about how the only way to avoid committing a crime would be to sit indoors with hands on the table, and even then you'd still be guilty of loitering.
It's just a wonderful blending of darkness and comedy. And drama: one of the more troubling passages in the book is the bit when Sam Vimes goes to the History Monks and is basically on the verge of a breakdown, having finally grasped the magnitude of what's about to happen and why. Seeing him so strained is always tough because it's so easy to get into his mind and understand why he's struggling not to be overwhelmed by his own cynicism and his desire to right wrongs, on top of his inability to grasp the sheer weirdness of time travel. And damn, when he gets his drive back later on, it is a beautiful (and hilarious) turning point.
An absolutely fantastic book.
Ever since I read NW for the first time, the Dolly Sisters Massacre bothered me because it kept reminding me of some other massacre I've read of. I can't remember which, though... is it the Peterloo Massacre of 1819, or the Amritsar Massacre of 1919? The former has the cavalry-and-sabre elements of Dolly Sisters, but the latter has the element that the soldiers (backed up by tanks) occupied the five gates of the garden where it happened, and stopped people from fleeing. *shudder*
Oh, I don't know. Ginger beer up the nose sounds pretty bad to me...
When I read this for the first time, I thought that it was meant to be ginger beer up the victim's... er... fundament. (Ahem). But that can't be right, can it?
Oh, I don't know. Ginger beer up the nose sounds pretty bad to me...
When I read this for the first time, I thought that it was meant to be ginger beer up the victim's... er... fundament. (Ahem). But that can't be right, can it?
RathDarkblade said:
Oh, I don't know. Ginger beer up the nose sounds pretty bad to me...
When I read this for the first time, I thought that it was meant to be ginger beer up the victim's... er... fundament. (Ahem). But that can't be right, can it?
When I read this for the first time, I thought that it was meant to be ginger beer up the victim's... er... fundament. (Ahem). But that can't be right, can it?
Which book was this? *curious* And who came up with this... inventive... piece of torture? :-
I've read Rack, Rope & Red Hot Pincers by Geoffrey Abbott... that was bad enough. Eugh!
I've read Rack, Rope & Red Hot Pincers by Geoffrey Abbott... that was bad enough. Eugh!
raisindot said:
RathDarkblade said:
Oh, I don't know. Ginger beer up the nose sounds pretty bad to me...
=Tamar said:
raisindot said:
RathDarkblade said:
Oh, I don't know. Ginger beer up the nose sounds pretty bad to me...
I try to moderate the hotness with some fresh lemon juice and honey, but I can definitely taste it. On the plus side, when I'm sick, I can definitely feel the ginger doing me good (at least in the short term). I highly recommend it for cold-and-flu-y type sickness.Yeah, I can definitely imagine how ginger-and-carbonation would be painful.
Something that's bothered me recently: during one scene midway through the book, after Vimes has opened the Watch house doors and dealt with a drunk who smashed the beer bottle in one hand, a hired crossbowman tries to shoot him, gets shot by Vetinari (we don't find this out until later), and then falls off the roof and breaks his neck. After Mossy Lawn confirms that he's dead, Vimes speculates on who could've sent him.
This is a really damn good question. The most obvious culprit would be the Cable Street Particulars, except they'd already sent men "to scare the brownjobs", and Vimes dismisses the suggestion. It's not a professional assassin, and Vimes finds no ID on the man. So who sent him to kill Vimes?
This is a really damn good question. The most obvious culprit would be the Cable Street Particulars, except they'd already sent men "to scare the brownjobs", and Vimes dismisses the suggestion. It's not a professional assassin, and Vimes finds no ID on the man. So who sent him to kill Vimes?
Hmm, now that's a good question. IIRC (and I don't have the book to hand), the relevant dialogue is something like this:
"...a man in the cells with holes through his feet, and a would-be assassin who has been assassinated," said Vimes.
"Now that's a mystery," said Dr Lawn. "Now me, I only have to know what this green growth means."
"I intend to solve mine very quickly," said Vimes.
(Or something like that... my apologies for not quoting verbatim, but as I said, I don't currently have the book!)
Now that I think of it, I don't think Vimes ever finds out who sent the would-be assassin, does he? I can't remember.
"...a man in the cells with holes through his feet, and a would-be assassin who has been assassinated," said Vimes.
"Now that's a mystery," said Dr Lawn. "Now me, I only have to know what this green growth means."
"I intend to solve mine very quickly," said Vimes.
(Or something like that... my apologies for not quoting verbatim, but as I said, I don't currently have the book!)
Now that I think of it, I don't think Vimes ever finds out who sent the would-be assassin, does he? I can't remember.
I don't know about the assassins, but tonight I came across some antique slang that may relate to Night Watch. I was on Project Gutenberg, skimming very rapidly through a book from 1821, The True History of Tom and Jerry, or Life in London. It includes a long glossary of Regency-era slang at the end.
Fig.—To fig a horse is to place a bit of ginger under his tail to make him frisky. Fig, dress. In Full Fig, full dress.—“All in the best.”
Now, I believe "dressage" with regard to horses refers to showing off their gait, often by making them prance. To make a horse look livelier than usual, maybe someone used the ginger trick.
Also relatable to Sam Vimes, not so much in Night Watch, but in Men at Arms:
Sam—To Stand Sam.—To pay for the whole of the reckoning. Sammy is he who is fool enough to do it.
Fig.—To fig a horse is to place a bit of ginger under his tail to make him frisky. Fig, dress. In Full Fig, full dress.—“All in the best.”
Now, I believe "dressage" with regard to horses refers to showing off their gait, often by making them prance. To make a horse look livelier than usual, maybe someone used the ginger trick.
Also relatable to Sam Vimes, not so much in Night Watch, but in Men at Arms:
Sam—To Stand Sam.—To pay for the whole of the reckoning. Sammy is he who is fool enough to do it.
Mark Reads has just started this book. I'll be really interested to see what he thinks of it. Last book was The Amazing Maurice - he loved that one.
I'm not at all sure whether this has been discussed on previous pages, and I'm too lazy to read through them all . . . But - one thing that has bothered me, probably from the first time I read Night Watch, is the location of the temple. There is the whole thing about Lu-Tze blindfolding Sam and trying to confuse him about the location, but as soon as Sam gets to the temple, he knows where it is. He says about the shonky shop, the pawnbroker and the weird temple. These are places he knows from his past. He got his first suit from there to apply for his job in the Watch. He knows the name of Mr Sun. This is clearly a place from his past that he should remember how to get to. But when he needs to go back there, he goes through the pantomime of using the soles of his boots to find the place. Do you think this is something that missed the editor . . . or am I missing something? :/
