Pratchett's Evil Characters

[Molokov]

Re: Pratchett\'s Evil Characters

The only time it's confirmed that Charlie (from The Truth) is standing in for Vetinari is in Raising Steam (I missed the explicitness of this the first time around - I thought it was implied - but on a recent re-read, it's actually spelled out quite plainly). Charlie stands in for Vetinari in A-M whilst Vetinari is in disguise as the train engineer that Moist interacts with (not Dick Simnel, the other one).

I suspect in Unseen Academicals it *was* really Vetinari, he was just acting drunker than he was, after drinking more beer than he would usually, mostly to get the Football captains onside. It may have been a little uncharacteristic, but I didn't feel it was completely out of place.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Re: Pratchett\'s Evil Characters

Oh, that's right! I haven't re-read RS, but thinking back to Stephen Briggs' reading, I seem to remember Charlie standing in for V.

I also agree that V getting drunker than usual to get the Football captains on-side wasn't out-of-character. In fact, it seems just like him - pragmatism first, whatever it takes to keep the city running - and all that jazz.

 

[raisindot]

Re: Pratchett\'s Evil Characters

I guess I'll be in the minority here. In UA Vetinari didn't need to get drunk to win the support of the football captains--all he needed to do was supply free beer.

I think at the time Pterry made a narrative decision that he wanted Vetinari to get all openly expositional about his role as tyrant, and that drinking was the mechanism that would make it happen. For me it didn't work, because Vetinari was always about control, measure, and succinctness. UA is the novel where his character began to change, and, for me, not for the better.

Compare Vetinari long and drawn out ramblings about tyrants in UA and RS to his simple, razor-sharp line explaining himself near the end of Making Money. When Moist tries to give Vetinari a little attitude, the Patrician says, simply and terror-inducingly, something along the lines of, "Must I wear a button that says Tyrant, Mr. Lipvig?"

 

[raisindot]

Re: Pratchett\\\'s Evil Characters

The only time it's confirmed that Charlie (from The Truth) is standing in for Vetinari is in Raising Steam (I missed the explicitness of this the first time around - I thought it was implied - but on a recent re-read, it's actually spelled out quite plainly). Charlie stands in for Vetinari in A-M whilst Vetinari is in disguise as the train engineer that Moist interacts with (not Dick Simnel, the other one).

Vetinari was not an engineer in Raising Steam. He was Stoker Blake, one of the people who shovels coal into the boiler. And it's doubtful that Moist had an actual conversation with him during the novel. He was kind of a ghostly presence, mentioned but not interacted with. The real question is whether Vimes knew Stoker Blake's true identity and/or if the two of them worked out this arrangement in secret before the train journey to Uberwald.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Re: Pratchett\'s Evil Characters

Hmm ... it's not the first time that Vetinari had expounded on the nature of Tyranny, though - he did the same towards the end of G!G!. It was one of my favourite parts of the book.

TBH, I can't remember Vetinari's exposition on Tyranny in UA or RS. What did he actually say?

As for whether Vimes knew in advance that V would be Stoker Blake - hmm ... sometimes Vetinari consults with Vimes, and sometimes he doesn't. As he says in Jingo, when Vimes complains that no-one told him about a Klatchian big-wig arriving in A-M: "Oddly enough, I am capable of running the city for minutes at a time without consulting you, Commander."

Then again, in TLH, Vetinari asks Vimes what to charge The Silver Horde with. IIRC, this is Vimes's only line in the book: "Conspiracy To Make An Affray should do it."

Hmm ... in the later books, V & V seem to grow further and further apart - have you noticed? In G!G!, Vimes saves Vetinari's life (by blocking Lupine Wonse's sword stroke). In MAA, Vimes does it again. In FOC, Vimes investigates an attempted assassination. Yet in J, Vetinari works behind the scenes while Vimes takes the lead. In TFE and MR, Vimes becomes a foreign diplomat and only has occasional direct dealings with Vetinari. In UA, IIRC, Vimes is (almost) completely absent while Vetinari takes the lead. In RS, Vimes and the Watch are peripheral to the plot, and only appear to watch the train in Harry King's yard and for the fight scenes.

IIRC, after Jingo, only once is Vimes a major part of the plot, while Vetinari takes a back-seat - in Thud!. In Snuff, IIRC, Vetinari is almost completely absent.

I can understand why these two don't get equal billing: they are both Magnificent Bastards. If they were in the same scene together, they'd quickly resolve everything. But is there a reason why, in some books, one of them is almost completely absent (e.g. in "Snuff", or in UA)?

 

[raisindot]

Re: Pratchett\\\'s Evil Characters

Hmm ... in the later books, V & V seem to grow further and further apart - have you noticed? In G!G!, Vimes saves Vetinari's life (by blocking Lupine Wonse's sword stroke). In MAA, Vimes does it again. In FOC, Vimes investigates an attempted assassination. Yet in J, Vetinari works behind the scenes while Vimes takes the lead. In TFE and MR, Vimes becomes a foreign diplomat and only has occasional direct dealings with Vetinari. In UA, IIRC, Vimes is (almost) completely absent while Vetinari takes the lead. In RS, Vimes and the Watch are peripheral to the plot, and only appear to watch the train in Harry King's yard and for the fight scenes.

IIRC, after Jingo, only once is Vimes a major part of the plot, while Vetinari takes a back-seat - in Thud!. In Snuff, IIRC, Vetinari is almost completely absent.

I can understand why these two don't get equal billing: they are both Magnificent Bastards. If they were in the same scene together, they'd quickly resolve everything. But is there a reason why, in some books, one of them is almost completely absent (e.g. in "Snuff", or in UA)?

When you think about it, nearly every Watch book is either about Vimes and/or The Watch either saving Vetinari from being permanently deposed (GG,MAA,FC,J, and The Truth, although, technically, it's not a Watch book) or about him furthering the advancement of Ankh Morpork (TFE, Thud). Snuff is the only book where Vimes is acting solely for Vimes' own purpose (although one could suspect that Vetinari encouraged Lady Sibyl to take him there to clean up the drug smuggling problem). Either though as Vimes gains more power he and Vetinari don't have as much personal interaction, Vimes still does remain Vetinari's terrier even if he doesn't realize he's still (figuratively) on the leash.

Vimes doesn't have much of a role in UA or the Moist Books (other than RS, where he does have a pretty significant part) because he really isn't needed in them. Those books are more about the progress of AM, and in those books Vetinari generally has a dominant role and the other main characters tend to play supporting roles. MR is a bit different, since it's really off by itself. Vimes isn't really needed in it, and my guess is that Pterry put him in because he didn't think such a totally "foreign" BW book could be popular unless he brought in a few well known characters from the other series.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Re: Pratchett\\\'s Evil Characters

Hmm... I can't do this without spoiler tags, so I'm going to make do without.

Please Don't Read Ahead If You Have Not Read "Feet Of Clay", "Jingo" Or "The Truth". Thank You.




I politely disagree. In FOC, Vimes thinks that he needs to save Vetinari, but the big V knows exactly what's happening. He lets Vimes run around and upset people - i.e. be his essential Vimesness!

In J, Vimes does things his way (i.e. the chase) and Vetinari does things his way (i.e. politics). Vetinari does get more active than usual, however. Vimes may think that he is called upon to save Vetinari, but the Big V has everything under control.

In The Truth, I can't recall if Vetinari is aware of the plot or not. I'd say he probably is. I don't recall the Watch saving him? I do recall the central plot (i.e. William de Worde, his father, and the New Firm).

I think we've forgotten another Watch book! Snuff isn't the only book in which Vimes acts for his own purposes. What about Night Watch? Vimes definitely acts for his own purposes there (i.e. keeping his younger self alive). He knows it; he even admits it. Vetinari has a few scenes, but it's essentially a Vimes book, and a fantastic one by any standards.

As for MR ... I don't think Pterry wrote him in, just so the book would be popular. The Borogravia squad mention him throughout as "Vimes the Butcher", so I suppose it was necessary for him to appear at some point, dispel the myth, and work out a deal that would be advantageous to A-M.

What's BW, by the way? I'm confused. Obviously not "Black and White"...

 

[raisindot]

Re: Pratchett\'s Evil Characters

spoilers ahead, ya ya ya

Oh yeah, forgot about NW. That truly is Vimes for Vimes, but you could argue that his 'purpose' there (whether he realizes it or not) is to save the AM of the future.

FOC IS a "saving Vetinari" story like GG and MA. Just because Vetinari knows what's going doesn't change the basic premise.

And I would argue that without Vimes arresting both sides in Jingo Vetinari would never have been able to accomplish his diplomatic swindle. So he is saving AM (and Vetinari's future) for that matter.

Whether Vimes truly knew the whole extent of the conspiracy in The Truth is up to question. I tend to think this was one case where Vimes got part of it but De Worde got the full story.

And "BW" was supposed to be "DW." Bad typing as usual.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Re: Pratchett\'s Evil Characters

SPOILERS AHOY!




Well ... I don't know if Vetinari can be "saved" when he's aware of the danger. In MAA, Vetinari seems utterly caught out - he's aware of the gonne, but not so much of its lethal capacity or who's behind it.

In FOC, on the other hand, Vetinari knows exactly what's going on and who's behind it. OTOH, it's definitely told from the POV of the Watch, not from Vetinari's.

Can you imagine a story told from Vetinari's POV? The Watch books show what happens when Vimes is on someone's trail. I certainly wouldn't like it if Vetinari was on my trail. Yikes. It would probably be a short book (and, for the criminal, a sticky end).

As for other evil characters ... what about Lily Weatherwax? Or Count Magpyr and his family? >

I recently listened to Nigel Planer's reading of Carpe Jugulum. I'd only read CJ once, and I never understood the journey undertaken by Granny Weatherwax and Mightily Oats (with the thorns and brambles and bogs, etc.) I also didn't understand the bits about the pheonix or firebird. Then, after I read "The Folklore of Discworld", everything made more sense. Now that I listened to Nigel Planer's reading, the whole thing made a lot more sense, and made Count Magpyr a much more threatening villain. >

What do you think?

 

[raisindot]

Re: Pratchett\\\'s Evil Characters

I recently listened to Nigel Planer's reading of Carpe Jugulum. I'd only read CJ once, and I never understood the journey undertaken by Granny Weatherwax and Mightily Oats (with the thorns and brambles and bogs, etc.) I also didn't understand the bits about the pheonix or firebird. Then, after I read "The Folklore of Discworld", everything made more sense. Now that I listened to Nigel Planer's reading, the whole thing made a lot more sense, and made Count Magpyr a much more threatening villain. >

What do you think?

I didn't "get" everything in CJ either. I think it's one of the DW books most open to interpretation, particularly about Granny's role and motivations. I think it would be better to discuss the specifics in the CJ forum (feel feel to nerk it and I'll add to it).

I will say that I absolutely loved Planer's reading of it. While I prefer Stephen Briggs' characterizations over Planer's in general, Planer totally gets the voices and characters of all the witches down perfectly, while Briggs struggles at times (his Nanny Ogg and Granny pale in comparison to Planer's). But although Planer's voicings of the Magpyrs as kind of stuffy aristocrats works perfectly in CJ, I prefer Briggs' Translvaniac voicings of vampires overall.

 

[Dotsie]

Re: Pratchett\\\'s Evil Characters

Well ... I don't know if Vetinari can be "saved" when he's aware of the danger.

He absolutely can, if he knows that there is a conspiracy to depose him but not necessarily all the players. He knew how they were doing it but that's all we can be sure of, plus it did Vimes good to bring to justice those who were trying to frame him for it - although the guild leaders were definitely complicit, but at least they wouldn't try it again.

 

[Tonyblack]

Re: Pratchett\'s Evil Characters

Vetinari might be aware of the Gonne and the danger it represents. However, I don't think he had taken into consideration the effect the Gonne could have on the wielder's mind. It was a wake up call to him. Not just that he was vulnerable, but that the City Watch represented something the growing city badly needed.