SPOILERS Pyramids Discussion *Spoilers*

[CrysaniaMajere]

I liked the bit where they were in the city and I laughed for the sphinx, but apart from that I remember only a laugh here and there, not very much, I think I missed most of the jokes. I hadn't reread it for this discussion because I remember it quite boring (don't kill me!!) So I thought : I won't reread it now, I'll wait for the discussion, to see what they say, and THEN I'll reread it knowing more about it

Exactly the same theme of Yes Minister/Yes Prime Minister (which finished in 1988 probably while TP was writing this book). Every time I re-read Pyramids I think of Dios as Sir Humphry Appleby and King Teppic as Jim Hacker.

: What is that Yes Minister thing? A show? Who are Appleby and Hacker?

 

[poohcarrot]

Yes Minister/Yes Prime Minister were UK TV comedy shows that ran from 1980-1988. The show was ranked 9th most popular TV show ever in 2000.

Hacker becomes a Minister (then Prime Minister) in a new Government. He has wonderful ideas on how to change the country, but in all his time he never achieves anything because Sir Humphrey (Head of the Civil Service) manges to foil all his attempts to change things. It's the Civil Service that actually controls everything and they all want things to remain as they are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister

 

[CrysaniaMajere]

Thanks, I'll read that page. I had never heard of it

 

[Tonyblack]

Thanks, I'll read that page. I had never heard of it

The funny thing is, in just about every country it's been shown in, the viewers thought it was a parody of their government.

 

[Sjoerd3000]

Not so long ago there was even a Dutch version made and broadcasted (september 2009) called Sorry Minister. It wasn't as good as the original, though

 

[poohcarrot]

Pyramids and religion Part I

One thing that Pyramids does that Small Gods doesn't, is attack religious fanatacism. In Small Gods there are no religious fanatics because nobody actually believes in Om.

In Pyramids it starts innocuously enough with this (page 42 paperback)

After that the masters intervened and explained that religion, while a fine thing, could be taken too far.

Then 15 pages later (page 57) TP drops this baby which is even truer today than the day it was written;

Look into the face of a man who will kill you for a belief and your nostrils will snuff up the scent of abomination. Hear a speech declaring a holy war and, I assure you, your ears should catch the clink of evil's scales and the dragging of its monstrous tail over the purity of the language.

And then to add lemon juice to the wound (page 160)

"I spoke blasphemy against our king (God).
I dropped a rock on my foot. Now my tongue is to be taken out."
"A priest heard you, did he?"
"No. I told a priest. Such words should not go unpunished," said the man virtuously.
We're really good at it, Teppic thought. Mere animals couldn't possibly manage to act like this. You need to be a human being to be really stupid.

 

[raisindot]

Yes Minister/Yes Prime Minister were UK TV comedy shows that ran from 1980-1988. The show was ranked 9th most popular TV show ever in 2000.

Hacker becomes a Minister (then Prime Minister) in a new Government. He has wonderful ideas on how to change the country, but in all his time he never achieves anything because Sir Humphrey (Head of the Civil Service) manges to foil all his attempts to change things. It's the Civil Service that actually controls everything and they all want things to remain as they are.

Ah, yes, YM/YPM, my favorite Brit comedy series of all time. I even have the hard to find books. It made me a rabid fan of Nigel Hawthorne, who I was later fortunate enough to see on stage in "The Madness of King George."

But as wily as Sir Humphrey was on the show, Hacker is just as responsible for his own failures by giving up his populist principles and becoming a easily manipulated, spineless jellyfish to climb the "greasy pole" of politics.

The humor is very British and not always easy for Americans unfamiliar with the British parliamentary system to understand, since in the executive branch there is no "single" civil service equivalent to Sir Humphrey's role as permanent secretary.

J-I-B

 

[Tonyblack]

Pyramids and religion Part I

One thing that Pyramids does that Small Gods doesn't, is attack religious fanatacism. In Small Gods there are no religious fanatics because nobody actually believes in Om.

In Pyramids it starts innocuously enough with this (page 42 paperback)

After that the masters intervened and explained that religion, while a fine thing, could be taken too far.

Then 15 pages later (page 57) TP drops this baby which is even truer today than the day it was written;

Look into the face of a man who will kill you for a belief and your nostrils will snuff up the scent of abomination. Hear a speech declaring a holy war and, I assure you, your ears should catch the clink of evil's scales and the dragging of its monstrous tail over the purity of the language.

And then to add lemon juice to the wound (page 160)

"I spoke blasphemy against our king (God).
I dropped a rock on my foot. Now my tongue is to be taken out."
"A priest heard you, did he?"
"No. I told a priest. Such words should not go unpunished," said the man virtuously.
We're really good at it, Teppic thought. Mere animals couldn't possibly manage to act like this. You need to be a human being to be really stupid.

I don't want to get too much into a discussion about Small Gods here as we haven't discussed it yet and many of the members here may not have read it at all. But, what you describe, Pooh is more about fear, indoctrination and religious fervour rather than actual belief in gods. People may not believe in Om in SG, but that doesn't stop them doing terrible things in his name. The religious fanatics are the priests and the people are afraid to do anything but obey the so-called religious doctrine of Om. I'd say there was most certainly religious fanaticism in SG.

The first example you use is about a small boy who has been frightened into religion. His god is more of a bogeyman than anything and that seems to have been driven into him by his mother. I'm not sure I'd call him a fanatic so much as terrified.

 

[Doughnut Jimmy]

Despite the awesome imagery of your second quote Pooh I'm not sure you can take the opinion of the assasin's guild as much of a moral guide - do you really believe Pratchett is trying to persuade us that it is better to kill for money than for a cause?

 

[poohcarrot]

I thought the big joke of SG was that even though it was theoretically a "theocracy", nobody actually believed in Om. Thus making Omnia a fascist state akin to Nazi Germany or modern day Iran. You can't be a religious fanatic if you don't believe. You could be a religious fascist though. In Omnia nobody would have turned themselves over to a priest for blaspheming if they dropped a rock on their foot.

Anyway, I'm not talking about people who do bad things in the name of a God they don't believe in. I'm talking about people who do bad things because they truly believe in a God, and truly believe they are carrying out God's wishes. Those people who "take religion too far" (see first quote).

Also, the first example I used wasn't about one small boy who'd been frightened into religion. It was about 5 seperate instances of boys, who while practicing their religion caused trouble.

 

[poohcarrot]

Despite the awesome imagery of your second quote Pooh I'm not sure you can take the opinion of the assasin's guild as much of a moral guide - do you really believe Pratchett is trying to persuade us that it is better to kill for money than for a cause?

I don't believe that no.

But surely TP can't stop a book half way through and do a Mike Yarwood and say, "This is the real me" then vent his spleen about something he wants his readers to know, then get back to the story.

You're implying that nothing any character says in any DW book bears any relation to what TP thinks or any message he's trying to get across.

So if you think the whole of Nation bears absolutely no relation to his beliefs, I'd have to say you were wrong.

 

[Tonyblack]

The bit with Arthur (is that the kid's name?) praying is, I think, a parody of a scene in Tom Brown's Schooldays. I haven't read the books and it's years ago since I saw the TV adaptation, but there are quite a few references to that book in that part of Pyramids. Not least the older boy named Fliemoe. This is an almost direct pun of a charcter in Tom Brown (and the Flashman books) named Speedicut. Flymo and Speedicut being brand names of lawnmowers.

 

[poohcarrot]

Here are the explanations about various bits of Pyramids which you may or may not know. As they have served their purpose and I'm now on to my own interpretations, let's level the playing field.

http://www.lspace.org/books/apf/pyramids.html

I mention religion and things start livening up.

I've only mentioned religion part I so far. :twisted:

 

[Doughnut Jimmy]

No Pooh I dont think nothing any character says can be taken as Pratchett's views but nor can everything anyone says (i'm not sure that sentence makes sense but I hope you get what I mean)

I think its valid to question whats said by the at best ammoral asassins.

 

[Tonyblack]

The question is - do the people of Djelibeybi believe in the King as a god in the same way they believe in all the strange animal headed gods? Their religion seems to contradict itself regarding, for example, who's responsible for making the sun come up.

 

[poohcarrot]

No Pooh I dont think nothing any character says can be taken as Pratchett's views but nor can everything anyone says (i'm not sure that sentence makes sense but I hope you get what I mean)

I think its valid to question whats said by the at best ammoral asassins.

It took me three readings to understand that sentence. Nothing wrong with it, just lots of negatives to get my head round.

It may or may not be what TP thinks, I don't know. But it's what I think he thinks the reader is meant to think, I think.

 

[Doughnut Jimmy]

They clearly believe in his power as Teppic is filled with it when he reenters the old Kingdom' and I think Pratchett says it's because of all the belief but I don't have the book here so can't check

 

[Dotsie]

This book does mention religion, no-one would argue with that. I just don't think that the wrongness of religion is a main theme. TP frequently mentions things in his books that he (and I) thinks are wrong, it doesn't make them a main theme.

 

[poohcarrot]

So if you had to pick one main theme, what would it be?

 

[Tonyblack]

So if you had to pick one main theme, what would it be?

Egypt.