SPOILERS Pyramids Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
That applies to both Pyramids and Small Gods.
The Nazis and abortion clinic bombers, too, come to think of it...
I love Pyramids. But Egypt is endlessly fascinating, so much history, so little time.
I think the biggest many do not like Pyramids is the history. You get the gods playing ball withe the sun, you get wannabee Greek philosophers shooting the sh*t over bunnies & turtles and you got the Trojan horse.
People don't understand the references if they havent' been nerdy enough to read this stuff like freaks (me) plus take every course they could of both civilizations (like me).
Anti-religion? Maybe... Anti-organized religion? Likely.
Anti-non-thinking nitwits? Definitely.
Tonyblack said:
poohcarrot said:
So if you had to pick one main theme, what would it be? 
Pooh, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that possibly the book depends too much on an "English sense of humor" (and on knowledge of English TV, English political structure and the like for non-Brits to "get" a lot of the jokes. And if you find Monty Python funny, then I guess you'd like this book. I find Monty Python boring and endless slapstick. Consequently, I find You B**strd mildly amusing as a mathematician, though I can see absolutely no reason for Pratchett to have done that. It doesn't contribute to anything that I can see.
I think (upon re-reading) that this is a kind of further development of the kind of novel he started with and got better at. He plays with ideas of time and pyramids, with stagnation, to some degree with religion, with a kind of religious dictatorship run by a 7000year old priest who doesn't dare let anything change. But he develops all of these ideas much more fully (and in MY HUMBLE OPINION) much better in Small Gods, Thief of Time, Monstrous Regiment, Thud, and Carpe Jugulum.
I quite agree with Doughnut, that one can hardly take the obvious parody of the Master of the Assassin's Guild's justification of their existence as an attack on religion. As Tony suggested, it's a satirization of the English Public School System--seeing itself as the ones who are the only people qualified to run the country.
The part of the book that does provide a kind of attack on theocracy as a form of government comes (p. 61) with the opening description of Dios .
"Dios, First Minister and High priest among high priests, wasn't a naturally religious man. It wasn't a desirable quality in a high priest, it affected your judgement, made you unsound. Start believing in things and the whole thing became a farce."
And on the next page, Pratchett could be thought to be taking a swipe at the Catholic Church before the Reformation--with the insistence on the importance of rituals.
But Dios has been ruling the country (as First Minister) and as we later find out since it's founding by having "puppet kings" in golden masks. he Actually Dios rules the country in the ways that are to his personal taste and advantage. And he brainwashes his country extremely successfully to believe in God/Kings and other Gods. But I don't think this makes it an attack on religion. Does the name Stalin ring any bells? And does a system of government which develops something akin to a religious belief in a political theory of government which justifies anything in the name of "The State" and uses that quasi-religious fervor it justify the failure of the government to deal with the real problems of the USSR ring a bell for anyone. Given the date when Pyramids was written (with the collapse of the USSR), one could, I think, suggest that the book is really an attack on political dictatorships which generally clothe themselves in some sort of quasi-religious status. Actually, I think it's a mishmash of ideas that Pratchett will develop much better in later books, but an attack on religion, it ain't.
I've got lots more to say, but this will do for a first go.
Pyramids and religion Part II
The The (ie Matt Johnson) are one of my favourite bands of all time. The album Mind Bomb was released in 1989, the same year as Pyramids was published. Here's a song from the album which I rate as the greatest anti-religion song of all time.
The The - Armageddon days are here (again)
They're 5 miles high as the crow flies
leavin' vapour trails against a blood red sky
Movin' in from the East toward the West
with Balaclava helmets over their heads, yes!
But if you think that Jesus Christ is coming
Honey you've got another think coming
If he ever finds out who's hi-jacked his name
He'll cut out his heart and turn in his grave
Islam is rising
The Christians mobilising
The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds
It's war, she cried, It's war, she cried, this is war
Drop your possessions, all you simple folk
You will fight them on the beaches in your underclothes
You will thank the good lord for raising the union jack
You'll watch the ships out of harbour
and the bodies come floating back
If the real Jesus Christ were to stand up today
He'd be gunned down cold by the C.I.A.
Oh, the lights that now burn brightest behind stained glass
Will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart
But God didn't build himself that throne
God doesn't live in Israel or Rome
God doesn't belong to the yankee dollar
God doesn't plant the bombs for Hezbollah
God doesn't even go to church
And God won't send us down to Allah to burn
No, God will remind us what we already know
That the human race is about to reap what it's sown
The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds
Armageddon days are here again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6wa-qOb8eI
To me, a couple of lines in this song and Pyramids contain exactly the same mind-boggling proposition. 8)
Can you see what I'm referring to?
The The (ie Matt Johnson) are one of my favourite bands of all time. The album Mind Bomb was released in 1989, the same year as Pyramids was published. Here's a song from the album which I rate as the greatest anti-religion song of all time.
The The - Armageddon days are here (again)
They're 5 miles high as the crow flies
leavin' vapour trails against a blood red sky
Movin' in from the East toward the West
with Balaclava helmets over their heads, yes!
But if you think that Jesus Christ is coming
Honey you've got another think coming
If he ever finds out who's hi-jacked his name
He'll cut out his heart and turn in his grave
Islam is rising
The Christians mobilising
The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds
It's war, she cried, It's war, she cried, this is war
Drop your possessions, all you simple folk
You will fight them on the beaches in your underclothes
You will thank the good lord for raising the union jack
You'll watch the ships out of harbour
and the bodies come floating back
If the real Jesus Christ were to stand up today
He'd be gunned down cold by the C.I.A.
Oh, the lights that now burn brightest behind stained glass
Will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart
But God didn't build himself that throne
God doesn't live in Israel or Rome
God doesn't belong to the yankee dollar
God doesn't plant the bombs for Hezbollah
God doesn't even go to church
And God won't send us down to Allah to burn
No, God will remind us what we already know
That the human race is about to reap what it's sown
The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds
Armageddon days are here again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6wa-qOb8eI
To me, a couple of lines in this song and Pyramids contain exactly the same mind-boggling proposition. 8)
Can you see what I'm referring to?
I think what you're saying Pooh is God/Gods didn't create religion people did (but I'm sure you'll correct me if not 
)- the God's of Djelibeybi aren't the least interested in the people, too busy fighting with eachother.
Certainly the priests have no redeeming features, a power-hungry bunch only to keen to kill eachother off.
Is this the first book where we come across the distinction between knowing a god exists and believing in them/worshipping them - I know it comes up in one of the witches books and possibly from Vimes as well. Useful technique for a fantasy author to have "rational" characters who don't just get incinerated by lightning throwing gods.
I agree with SW reader that Pratchett plays around with religion in Pyramids but only along with other themes like Space, Time and What the hell the ancients were really up to.
)- the God's of Djelibeybi aren't the least interested in the people, too busy fighting with eachother.Certainly the priests have no redeeming features, a power-hungry bunch only to keen to kill eachother off.
Is this the first book where we come across the distinction between knowing a god exists and believing in them/worshipping them - I know it comes up in one of the witches books and possibly from Vimes as well. Useful technique for a fantasy author to have "rational" characters who don't just get incinerated by lightning throwing gods.
I agree with SW reader that Pratchett plays around with religion in Pyramids but only along with other themes like Space, Time and What the hell the ancients were really up to.
- May 5, 2009
- 3,181
- 2,600
Dios. Dios *Chose* not to follow the other mummies in the end of the book. He, being a megalomaniac, saw another country and decided they needed his brand of... call it what you want, religion, rulership, leading by fear of the unknown or crocodiles. He just could not see that "His Way" was not the only way, everyone else is wrong and he is the ONLY way. See any similarities with the religious issues over the last 10,000 years?
Wars have been fought over one little line in a text and two leaders' refusal to come to an agreement over what it means.
I agree with Trish one hundred percent that "Organized Religion" is the culprit, little men with power over others who tell them that THEY are the chosen ones. I am comfortable with my beliefs, my Bro-in-law studies ancient history and sees the crap that different civilizations have put forth as "THE WAY" and has decided to believe in NOT believing in the "baby food" versions of religion offered up to the masses who blindly accept what is fed to them.
I found a button that sums it up beautifully "It is Easier to be Born Again than it is to Grow Up".
Making your own decisions is hard, it is what makes you grow. I love being my own person.
Wars have been fought over one little line in a text and two leaders' refusal to come to an agreement over what it means.
I agree with Trish one hundred percent that "Organized Religion" is the culprit, little men with power over others who tell them that THEY are the chosen ones. I am comfortable with my beliefs, my Bro-in-law studies ancient history and sees the crap that different civilizations have put forth as "THE WAY" and has decided to believe in NOT believing in the "baby food" versions of religion offered up to the masses who blindly accept what is fed to them.
I found a button that sums it up beautifully "It is Easier to be Born Again than it is to Grow Up".
Making your own decisions is hard, it is what makes you grow. I love being my own person.
I love that button, Tina!
I'm not sure if it's clear to everyone - it certainly wasn't to me when I first read the book - the place that Dios ends up is where he started. When the Pyramid exploded it sent him back in time to when Kuft first found the river valley. So he was doomed to repeat his life over and over. He actually gained the immortality he wanted, but at a terrible price. It makes me feel kind of sorry for him (but not much). The blast also seems to have made him lose a huge chunk of his memory, so he doesn't remember the significance of the future he's got to live - only the importance of building pyramids.
I'm not sure if it's clear to everyone - it certainly wasn't to me when I first read the book - the place that Dios ends up is where he started. When the Pyramid exploded it sent him back in time to when Kuft first found the river valley. So he was doomed to repeat his life over and over. He actually gained the immortality he wanted, but at a terrible price. It makes me feel kind of sorry for him (but not much). The blast also seems to have made him lose a huge chunk of his memory, so he doesn't remember the significance of the future he's got to live - only the importance of building pyramids.
- May 5, 2009
- 3,181
- 2,600
No, he didn't feel doomed at all, because he is just stuck in that deep, deep, deep rut of rituals. He knew full well, that their gods only had significance because of the fear that they cast over people to control their behaviour. He reminds me of my mommie dearest, she HAS to CONTROL every single moment of everyone's life or she will not be happy. So, to remain sane, we allow her to think she is. Dios took that one step further with the Sacred Crocodiles.
It is an apt metaphor that the prisoner began to shout for the guards because he KNEW in his heart that Pteppic was Evil for even thinking about rescuing him. He accepted his tongue being ripped out the next day because he had uttered some stupid thing.
My sister and I have agreed that we would not have survived in early societies due to the fact that we speak our minds. When an intelligent woman popped up, they were branded as witches and usually drowned them or burned them. A Real Witch would never have been found out, because she could obfuscate them into thinking they were a "Lawks!! Oh me, Oh my, How can I get across this road, tis so wide and dangerous and I am so timid and weak" type 'o' gal.
It is an apt metaphor that the prisoner began to shout for the guards because he KNEW in his heart that Pteppic was Evil for even thinking about rescuing him. He accepted his tongue being ripped out the next day because he had uttered some stupid thing.
My sister and I have agreed that we would not have survived in early societies due to the fact that we speak our minds. When an intelligent woman popped up, they were branded as witches and usually drowned them or burned them. A Real Witch would never have been found out, because she could obfuscate them into thinking they were a "Lawks!! Oh me, Oh my, How can I get across this road, tis so wide and dangerous and I am so timid and weak" type 'o' gal.
Good points Tina, wonderful idea that all of Djelibebyian/Egyptian culture was created by Dios to create pyramids so he could reverse time in his - and all the kings missed the point!
On a lighter note I read on Lspace that the assasins exam sequence is based on a driving test - does it actually remind anyone of their driving test? Even on rereading looking for the connections it didn't seem an obvious parody (or maybe the test has changed dramatically since '89) interested to hear what the rest of you thought?
On a lighter note I read on Lspace that the assasins exam sequence is based on a driving test - does it actually remind anyone of their driving test? Even on rereading looking for the connections it didn't seem an obvious parody (or maybe the test has changed dramatically since '89) interested to hear what the rest of you thought?
Pyramids and relegion Part II cont...
As nobody appears to undestand what I'm jabbering on about (nice try DJ ), let me explain. It's purely my opinion, so feel free to totally disagree.
TP books make me think. Pyramids made me think more than any other DW book. For me the greatest parody in Pyramids is not about what has happened in Roundworld in the past, or about what happens in Roundworld now, but a what-if-it-happened on Roundworld in the future?
In Pyramids, the gods become real with hilarious consequences. They are not at all like the priests expect, are not interested in rituals and proceed to wreck havoc on the country.
Now, move this scenario to Roundworld. What would happen if Jesus Christ came back tomorrow?
Would he be in favour of capitalism? I doubt it.
Would he approve of the accumulation of wealth? Shouldn't think so.
Would he approve of the church? Probably not.
If Jesus came back tomorrow, I can't help thinking that he'd be just as anti-establishment as he was 2,000 years ago. So he would be not at all like the priests expect, not interested in rituals and proceed to wreck havoc on the country. Exactly the same as the gods in Pyramids!
Spend any time thinking about the implications of a second coming and you will probably come to the same conclusion as The The;
In Pyramids, at least for me, TP poses his most metaphysical question ever.
As nobody appears to undestand what I'm jabbering on about (nice try DJ
), let me explain. It's purely my opinion, so feel free to totally disagree. TP books make me think. Pyramids made me think more than any other DW book. For me the greatest parody in Pyramids is not about what has happened in Roundworld in the past, or about what happens in Roundworld now, but a what-if-it-happened on Roundworld in the future?
In Pyramids, the gods become real with hilarious consequences. They are not at all like the priests expect, are not interested in rituals and proceed to wreck havoc on the country.
Now, move this scenario to Roundworld. What would happen if Jesus Christ came back tomorrow?
Would he be in favour of capitalism? I doubt it.
Would he approve of the accumulation of wealth? Shouldn't think so.
Would he approve of the church? Probably not.
If Jesus came back tomorrow, I can't help thinking that he'd be just as anti-establishment as he was 2,000 years ago. So he would be not at all like the priests expect, not interested in rituals and proceed to wreck havoc on the country. Exactly the same as the gods in Pyramids!
Spend any time thinking about the implications of a second coming and you will probably come to the same conclusion as The The;
In Pyramids, at least for me, TP poses his most metaphysical question ever.
Possibly an even more crucial question is what if all the gods people believe in appeared - would they fight amongst themselves or get along - could be scary if they did start fighting and justified religious war.
Though since so many religions worship the same god but different interpretations/prophets it might all get a bit confusing
Fascinating line of thought Pooh I may post a more coherent reply later
Though since so many religions worship the same god but different interpretations/prophets it might all get a bit confusing
Fascinating line of thought Pooh
I may post a more coherent reply later
Yes Pooh, I can see that, but Terry does the same thing so much better in Small Gods. Om doesn't care about rituals or even how people treat each other - he only cares that people believe in him - because that's what give him life.
As to the driving test - well it certainly rings some bells with me. There's the emergency stop (when Teppic falls after finding the plank is missing) and the symbols on the cards (reminiscent of the road signs test) and the whole "proceed in your own time Mr Teppic" type language of Mericet.
As to the driving test - well it certainly rings some bells with me. There's the emergency stop (when Teppic falls after finding the plank is missing) and the symbols on the cards (reminiscent of the road signs test) and the whole "proceed in your own time Mr Teppic" type language of Mericet.
But SG is totally different. I hardly think Jesus coming back as a tortoise is going to rock the pillars of the modern day establishment.
There is nothing in SG implying the second coming scenario that Pyramids invokes.
Plus in SG nobody believes (except Brutha), whereas in Pyramids everybody believes (except Dios).
There is nothing in SG implying the second coming scenario that Pyramids invokes.
Plus in SG nobody believes (except Brutha), whereas in Pyramids everybody believes (except Dios).
Because that's the only thing that matters to him, of course. But if we talk religion here, in TP books noone ever talks of a caring-loving-God, if I remember correctly. They all talk of Mighty-God, omnipotent-Gods, vengeaful-Gods... and they believe in them because they are scared they might get angry or because they simply want something : if I please them the Gods will reward me., kind of thing.
The problem of Jesus returning is noone would ever, ever believe it. Not even shot him, because he would be only a madman.
The Church would be the first to say he's a fraud because many if not all the powerful in the Church don't follow his predicaments. San Pietro doesn't even look like a church, it's more a tourist village. A place to spend money, not a place to pray.
I think the world would ignore him unless he starts doing such big things to make it impossible to avoid him, to force the world into believing in him.
Sg and P are different, ok, but not that much, I don't really see a great difference. The Gods are more or less alike. The people are different (here they believe, there they don't), but the theme is more or less the same, isn't it? People do a lot of things in the names of Gods that never asked for them. Isn't this what it is all about? People?
The problem of Jesus returning is noone would ever, ever believe it. Not even shot him, because he would be only a madman.
The Church would be the first to say he's a fraud because many if not all the powerful in the Church don't follow his predicaments. San Pietro doesn't even look like a church, it's more a tourist village. A place to spend money, not a place to pray.
I think the world would ignore him unless he starts doing such big things to make it impossible to avoid him, to force the world into believing in him.
Sg and P are different, ok, but not that much, I don't really see a great difference. The Gods are more or less alike. The people are different (here they believe, there they don't), but the theme is more or less the same, isn't it? People do a lot of things in the names of Gods that never asked for them. Isn't this what it is all about? People?
The problem with your theory, Pooh, is that you think the book is about religion, and it's not. The "gods" of Djelibeybi (pronounced jelly baby) were created by Dios. He used them to increase his power and foster his megalomaniac delusion that everything he does is the only right thing, including spending enough time in the tomb of Kuhft to maintain his own 7000 year life.
When Koomi tries to tell Dios (after the gods appear when the kingdom has been temporarily cut loose from the universe) that they own the place, Dios loses it and reveals his megalomania.
"They're our gods," Dios hissed. We are not their people. They're my gods and they will learn to do as they are instructed!" They are, of course, a parody of some of the Egyptian gods in their form, but like many of Pratchett's other allusions, they have no particular function. Pratchett sketches out the idea (developed fully in SG) that the gods exist because people believe in them. Only once the kingdom is enclosed and "floating free of the rest of the universe, drifting away from the
general consensus that is dignified by the name of reality, the power of belief was making itself felt." (p. 202)
I strongly suspect that the reason for the initial section in AM is that only someone trained as an Assassin would dream of climbing the great pyramid (even if he ends up having to stand on the shoulders of his ancestors) to cap it and return the Kingdom to reality. But, Teppic can then be used as an opponent to Dios, and (having been exposed to reality) isn't interested in staying with a Kingdom that is 7000 years out of date.
Pratchett throws in all sorts of allusions--none of which forward the story or link to any theme. They are designed to let the reader feel superior when he/she recognizes the Ephebians as various Greek philosophers, mathematicians, poets, historians, etc., while the Tsortians seem to function primarily as the Trojans. Hence the wooden horses. Pratchett takes a nice little poke at the stupidity of wars - when the disappearance of the old Kingdom requires a stupid war.
"If we don't attack them, they'll attack us first," said Ibid.
"'Sright," said Xeno. "So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike." (Shades of G. Bush & Donald Rumsfeld)
Ptraci arrives back in the kingdom rolled up in a carpet (as Cleopatra is said to have been smuggled in from Greece, or brought before Caesar). Pratchett is just playing the allusion game again. Making the greatest mathematician in the world a camel is funny--although it seems to me that it gets a bit old.
The Pyramids suggest Egypt, of course, but also the Southern California belief in pyramids and time--from which comes the whole question of how does time function and is a another dimension?
There are some funny bits (at least I found them funny), and a great deal of stuff which I found unfunny (eg. Ephebians and Tsortians). But for real exploration of the relations ship between belief and gods, belief and people's actions--you have to go to Small Gods, Monstrous Regiment and Carpe Jugulum.
When Koomi tries to tell Dios (after the gods appear when the kingdom has been temporarily cut loose from the universe) that they own the place, Dios loses it and reveals his megalomania.
"They're our gods," Dios hissed. We are not their people. They're my gods and they will learn to do as they are instructed!" They are, of course, a parody of some of the Egyptian gods in their form, but like many of Pratchett's other allusions, they have no particular function. Pratchett sketches out the idea (developed fully in SG) that the gods exist because people believe in them. Only once the kingdom is enclosed and "floating free of the rest of the universe, drifting away from the
general consensus that is dignified by the name of reality, the power of belief was making itself felt." (p. 202)
I strongly suspect that the reason for the initial section in AM is that only someone trained as an Assassin would dream of climbing the great pyramid (even if he ends up having to stand on the shoulders of his ancestors) to cap it and return the Kingdom to reality. But, Teppic can then be used as an opponent to Dios, and (having been exposed to reality) isn't interested in staying with a Kingdom that is 7000 years out of date.
Pratchett throws in all sorts of allusions--none of which forward the story or link to any theme. They are designed to let the reader feel superior when he/she recognizes the Ephebians as various Greek philosophers, mathematicians, poets, historians, etc., while the Tsortians seem to function primarily as the Trojans. Hence the wooden horses. Pratchett takes a nice little poke at the stupidity of wars - when the disappearance of the old Kingdom requires a stupid war.
"If we don't attack them, they'll attack us first," said Ibid.
"'Sright," said Xeno. "So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike." (Shades of G. Bush & Donald Rumsfeld)
Ptraci arrives back in the kingdom rolled up in a carpet (as Cleopatra is said to have been smuggled in from Greece, or brought before Caesar). Pratchett is just playing the allusion game again. Making the greatest mathematician in the world a camel is funny--although it seems to me that it gets a bit old.
The Pyramids suggest Egypt, of course, but also the Southern California belief in pyramids and time--from which comes the whole question of how does time function and is a another dimension?
There are some funny bits (at least I found them funny), and a great deal of stuff which I found unfunny (eg. Ephebians and Tsortians). But for real exploration of the relations ship between belief and gods, belief and people's actions--you have to go to Small Gods, Monstrous Regiment and Carpe Jugulum.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that. I think Pyramids is about religion. In Pyramids TP even gives a reason for why people believe in gods. I can't recall in Small Gods if he makes any similar such bold statement about the reasons why people believe in a god.
(page 74) "People needed to believe in gods, if only because it was so hard to believe in people."
Well spotted. I was going to mention the exact same thing!
Crys
Exactly! So assuming Jesus was quite a clever guy, what would he do? How would he get his message of love and peace across to as many people as possible?
(page 74) "People needed to believe in gods, if only because it was so hard to believe in people."
Well spotted. I was going to mention the exact same thing!
Crys
Exactly! So assuming Jesus was quite a clever guy, what would he do? How would he get his message of love and peace across to as many people as possible?
I have to agree with a lot of other people here that Pyramids is not, mainly, about religion. Sure religion is touched upon in the novel but it isn't the main theme.
Because Teppic went to AM to be trained by the Assassins he is probably the only person in Djelibeybi who has an outsiders view on Djelibeybi and through his eyes we see the stagnation of Djelibeybi. So to me too the stagnation theme is the most important.
Like I said before I enjoyed this book very much it made me alot but I just don't see religion has the most important theme in the book
(sorry Pooh )
Because Teppic went to AM to be trained by the Assassins he is probably the only person in Djelibeybi who has an outsiders view on Djelibeybi and through his eyes we see the stagnation of Djelibeybi. So to me too the stagnation theme is the most important.
Like I said before I enjoyed this book very much it made me
alot but I just don't see religion has the most important theme in the book(sorry Pooh
)
