Richard Dawkins?

[poohcarrot]

I didn't think it went far enough. :twisted:

And if 40% of Americans believe the world is only 6,000 years old, they need something to shock them out of their self-absorbed, pig-ignorance. But of course they won't read it, because if someone has the gall to ridicule their bizarre, fantastical beliefs, they'd rather just kill him.

The Greatest Show on Earth is possibly even better.

 

[Werewolf87]

I know he got quite a lot of hatred for this book, so did the guy who wrote an anti-book to his. Everyone is merrily screaming at each other.
By the way I am not defending creationists, as I said, it stops for me when they start to try to turn their views into my laws. I was the only one getting really angry back in school when my biology teacher suddenly started teaching Intelligent Design (and I'm not even in the US).
That said, there are so many flavours between the extremes on either side that you can't lump them all together, like, at least I think, Dawkins did in his book. Not all religious people are creationists, dumb or irrational.

 

[Dotsie]

Not all religious people are creationists, dumb or irrational.

Maybe not, but there's always an agenda. There's often also a request for special treatment, a need not to obey some laws, and a desire to segregate. All of which is damaging, particularly as often they might get their own way. Sexism is rife in religion, all religion, as is homophobia, racism... just because the people who follow a religion think that this is alright, it doesn't mean that it is, or that we should allow it. And yet we do.

 

[Teppic]

Secularism is important to me. Atheism not so much. Too much time is spent debating whether God exists to be perfectly honest.

Atheism, for me, is like choosing not to support a football team. It's really not an important thing to me personally, although to all intents and purposes I am atheist.

Similarly, other peoples' religions, as far as I'm concerned, are a hobby. It might be a very passionate hobby for many, but the fact that someone is Christian or Muslim or whatever ought to be treated in the same way as if someone is a fan of a football club or a particular singer. It should not be pandered to, but nor should it be cruelly ridiculed unless there's a very good reason for doing so.

That is to say, I don't mind religion if someone personally wants to believe. But when religious people - espeically those in positions of influence - start, for example, questioning equality laws as the Pope did in the UK recently, that's when a line is crossed.

Thankfully, for the most part, our judiciary is not having any of it.

On the case of a religiously homophobic couple being refused the right to adopt a child, the court said this:

Lord Justice Munby and Mr Justice Beatson ruled that laws protecting people from discrimination because of their sexual orientation "should take precedence" over the right not to be discriminated against on religious grounds.

In other words, the freedom not to be discriminated against on the basis of sexual orientation, gender, race...all the things we ARE and CAN'T HELP BEING should take precedent in law over things we CHOOSE like religious viewpoints. There shouldn't even be any controversy over this...it's quite a simple concept....a shame people like the Pope can't grasp it.

This thread's got me ranting a bit, apologies!

 

[poohcarrot]

Way to go (again) Teppic!

 

[poohcarrot]

nothing here!

 

[poohcarrot]

...or here.

 

[poohcarrot]

Well if Teppic can have a rant, so can I. :twisted:

It (Religion) should not be pandered to, but nor should it be cruelly ridiculed unless there's a very good reason for doing so.

Well I think there is a very good reason for ridiculing creationism and I will continue to do so.

Creationism is the selfish, bastard child of christianity and capitalism.

Capitalism is all about "Me". I want this, I want that. Me, Me, Me.

Creationism places the emphasis on the individual. God loves Me. God will never harm Me. God will never allow the world to be destroyed because He loves Me. Even if things get too bad on this world then He will rapture Me up to heaven. I believe in creationism therefore I am right, regardless of what science says. I Know I will go to heaven.

Creationism is killing Christianity.

I have every respect for any Christian who believes the world is 4.5 billion years old, that God created the world, the universe and evolution, who doesn't try to ram any scientific mumbo-jumbo down my throat and palm it off as the Truth, who is humble enough to believe they aren't worthy of going to heaven.

Anyone who talks to God is OK in my book. People who not only talk to God, but actually have conversations with him (ie; George Bush or Sarah Palin), I don't want even remotely near a nuclear button and will fight my hardest to stop that happening.

Creationists are exactly the same people who persecuted Galileo. Humanity will not progress as long as these blinkered and ignorant people have their minds set in the the Middle ages.

The Bible IS NOT the true and authentic word of God! It was written by men. It's a bloody parable for God's sake!

(rant over)

PS I'm under a lot of earthquake/radiation related stress at the moment, so if every now and then I go over the top, please excuse me, it's just my way of chilling out.

 

[DaveC]

That was some after shock. It vibrated three times down the page.

 

[pip]

Its amazing how all Poohs posts sound the same

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Creationism *insert general pooh rant here* It's just wrong. Accept it.

Trouble is some rants get a leetle too much emphasis creeping in and then things get heated and people start to take offence when really they don't need to. Luckily most of us know how liberal pooh really is so we know he's not really fighting fire with napalm, but for new people it can seem like they've got hold of an atheist zealot at times - which is actually very good for them I think, but it hardly makes for tame and lustreless consensual discussion *yawns*.

 

[captainmeme]

Arrgh... I've got to be pulled into this again...

Creationism is the same as Christianity; it puts emphasis on how God loves EVERYONE, not just 'me, me, me'. Therefore it is not anything like Capitalism. Jesus died on the cross for others, not for himself, and I know many Creationist missionaries who have given up all they own to go and help others. That isn't selfish.

Creationists don't believe they are worthy to go to Heaven, any more than normal Christians are. The only reason we are going to Heaven is that we have accepted forgiveness; this does not make us better than anyone else.

Saying that Creationists persecuted Galileo is true, but only to a certain extent. The Catholic church at the time were Creationist. They were power-hungry and they did not follow Christian teachings. This is why they persecuted Galileo; not because they were Creationists. Creationist Christians are nice people; at least, those who follow Jesus are.

You believe that the Bible is not true. I believe that it is. Neither of us can prove it, so we may as well not state our beliefs as fact. I know I've not kept with this in the past, but I will if you will, ok?

Also, I'm not going against the fact that Creationism goes against some aspects of what is taught as science. I still know about evolution and the Big Bang. I am allowed to have my own beliefs, even if I have to be taught otherwise.


I can't believe I just wrote all that. I'm still looking for the Mended Drum. When I followed Pooh's instructions last time I just found a load of people on crosses singing 'Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life' at me...

 

[Dotsie]

You believe that the Bible is not true. I believe that it is. Neither of us can prove it, so we may as well not state our beliefs as fact. I know I've not kept with this in the past, but I will if you will, ok?

I don't think I'm just speaking for myself when I say, I will never state that the truth about the creation of the Earth is not fact, or that evolution is not fact. It is, and it's provable, and sticking your fingers in your ears won't change that. If I were to say there's no proof, or that it's just a theory, I'd be lying, and frankly more offensive than if I told the truth.

 

[captainmeme]

I'm not talking about evolution here. I'm talking about the Bible.

 

[Tonyblack]

I'm not talking about evolution here. I'm talking about the Bible.

But Creationism says that evolution doesn't exist. You can surely understand that those of us who believe in evolution are never going to be happy with a doctrine that says we are wrong.

And Creationism is NOT the same as Christianity. Plenty of Christians believe in evolution. It's perfectly possible to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and evolution.

 

[captainmeme]

I think you've contradicted yourself there. First you said that the Bible goes against evolution, then you said that you could follow evolution and the Bible...

Anyhow, I was saying that Creationism is the same as Christianity when it comes to Jesus's teachings.

 

[Tonyblack]

I think you've contradicted yourself there. First you said that the Bible goes against evolution, then you said that you could follow evolution and the Bible...

Anyhow, I was saying that Creationism is the same as Christianity when it comes to Jesus's teachings.

No I didn't. I didn't mention the Bible once. I said, if you were paying attention, that Creationists are against evolution. You cannot be a Creationist and believe in evolution, but you can be a Christian and believe in it.

The Bible is a book and Creationists have chosen to interpret what is written in it literally.

Capt. I'm not going to argue with you on thisany more. Last time you got depressed and gave the impression that everyone was picking on you because you were young and disadvantaged because we were all much older.

 

[captainmeme]

Capt. I'm not going to argue with you on thisany more. Last time you got depressed and gave the impression that everyone was picking on you because you were young and disadvantaged because we were all much older.

Yes, true. Sorry about that. I really need to stop getting involved in these threads...

 

[Werewolf87]

I think you've contradicted yourself there. First you said that the Bible goes against evolution, then you said that you could follow evolution and the Bible...

There are christians that view the bible more as a book of metaphores and there are those that take every single word literally.

Edit: Someone else was faster.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Captain - I was brought up as Catholic and went to Catholic schools from 1963 until I left at 16 - a non-believer from the age of 12 because of the unchristian behaviour of nuns. We were not taught about the world only being 6000 yrs old, but we were taught about dinosaurs, fossils and vulcanism in terms of billions of years. At secondary school I was taught about neolithic cultures from the last Ice Ages, about Neanderthal human beings (Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis), and Cro Magnon (Homo Sapiens Sapiens - us today) The Catholic Church accepted the scientific and secular validity of evolution in the 1950s.

Like Pooh said earlier - we were taught Genesis in terms of it being a parable and in fact actually reading the Old Testament hardly figured at all during Religious Education classes - as taught by priests and nuns. All we got in the way of bible study was the New Testament and most of that was taught in extract, rather than straight reading from the Gospels. We had a former priest (who was still a practising christian and believer) teach us Science, including Biology, in Yr5 primary school and he was not a fan of Intelligent Design either - in fact he had us reading bits of 2001 A Space Odyssey at one stage!

Creationism in religion is a schism not a general belief and it is no longer subscribed to by the Catholic Church which, I believe, still accounts for quite a large proportion of whatever figure is being put forward as representing the number of of christians currently inhabiting planet Earth. Whether they actually practice christianity as taught by Jesus, as many of us have noted including yourself, is debatable... 8)