Richard Dawkins?
- Thread starter The rat
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poohcarrot said:
Do most christians believe they are guarenteed 100% a place in heaven? 
Most Catholics hope that they'll go to Purgatory and that their families will pray for them. Purgatory is like some sort of ethereal soul valeting service. Eventually, once your soul is clean enough, you might be let into Heaven.
Catholics think that you are born with the stain of Original Sin (the sins of Adam and Eve) on your soul and that can only be cleansed by the sacrament of Baptism.
It's a hard life being a Catholic and you don't have much to look forward to when you die.
Tonyblack said:
poohcarrot said:
Do most christians believe they are guarenteed 100% a place in heaven?
Most Catholics hope that they'll go to Purgatory and that their families will pray for them. Purgatory is like some sort of ethereal soul valeting service. Eventually, once your soul is clean enough, you might be let into Heaven.
Catholics think that you are born with the stain of Original Sin (the sins of Adam and Eve) on your soul and that can only be cleansed by the sacrament of Baptism.
It's a hard life being a Catholic and you don't have much to look forward to when you die.
Speaking from a position of some dubious authority (being a horribly lapsed Catholic and v. proud of that) we were taught that everyone could potentially go to heaven regardless of creed, colour, race or sexual persuasion (although you'd have to try pretty damned hard with the last one ). The clincher however is... PURGATORY! :twisted:
Not hell, but a pretty squalid 'burb betwixt the Black Pit and Heaven Liek Tony's said this is where all sinners (which of course is practically everyone except possibly Mary Mother of God ) go to serve a term of suitable punishment until you've paid for your evil deeds and are cleaned up enough to pass muster at the Pearly Gates.
So - in theory - Hitler, having been born into a Catholic family (not Catholic you notice, just the potential to be one), eshewing God and animal meat products altogether, killing several million people for no good reason and making many more millions of lives blighted and bereaved, if, on taking his own life (itself a major sin of course), he for one millisecond before the cyanide kicked in though GOODNESS! I WAS WRONG ALL ALONG FORGIVE ME O LORD! and REALLY MEANT IT... - hey presto! He would be off the hook and off to Purgatory instead of Hellfire and damnation. How long he'd have to stay there is then the next stumbling block and of course there'd be plenty of other souls in there with the Star of David hovering around them not wanting to make his stay there too pleasant so lert's live in hope that he'd be there for most of eternity if that's possible.
It also rather neatly and justly puts rabid b*stards like Fred Phelps and his merry bunch of self-righteous retards related or otherwise right down into their scabby biggotted places, so it's not quite so kitsch and PC as it seems, so much as good PR where everyone does get what's coming to them to some degree
Like I keep saying Catholics get guilt as much as Jews, 'cos it's all the same One God - only when he's called Allah he's got more gonads and goes proactive and ups his sales pitch so you can have a good punch-up on your way to Heaven without getting too worried about the consequences...
Everyone can get in - it's just a question of how much resistance you're prepared to put into that whilst you have a pulse :twisted:
). The clincher however is... PURGATORY! :twisted: Not hell, but a pretty squalid 'burb betwixt the Black Pit and Heaven
Liek Tony's said this is where all sinners (which of course is practically everyone except possibly Mary Mother of God ) go to serve a term of suitable punishment until you've paid for your evil deeds and are cleaned up enough to pass muster at the Pearly Gates. So - in theory - Hitler, having been born into a Catholic family (not Catholic you notice, just the potential to be one), eshewing God and animal meat products altogether, killing several million people for no good reason and making many more millions of lives blighted and bereaved, if, on taking his own life (itself a major sin of course), he for one millisecond before the cyanide kicked in though GOODNESS! I WAS WRONG ALL ALONG FORGIVE ME O LORD! and REALLY MEANT IT... - hey presto! He would be off the hook and off to Purgatory instead of Hellfire and damnation. How long he'd have to stay there is then the next stumbling block and of course there'd be plenty of other souls in there with the Star of David hovering around them not wanting to make his stay there too pleasant so lert's live in hope that he'd be there for most of eternity if that's possible.
It also rather neatly and justly puts rabid b*stards like Fred Phelps and his merry bunch of self-righteous retards related or otherwise right down into their scabby biggotted places, so it's not quite so kitsch and PC as it seems, so much as good PR where everyone does get what's coming to them to some degree
Like I keep saying Catholics get guilt as much as Jews, 'cos it's all the same One God - only when he's called Allah he's got more gonads and goes proactive and ups his sales pitch so you can have a good punch-up on your way to Heaven without getting too worried about the consequences...
Everyone can get in - it's just a question of how much resistance you're prepared to put into that whilst you have a pulse :twisted:
God is not nice!
He's not forgiving - hence saddling Catholics with a sin that they didn't even commit.
He created Adam and Eve (if we are to believe the Bible) and when they didn't measure up to his expectations, he threw a strop and kicked them out. Never mind that his original design was obviously flawed, or they would have behaved themselves. Not just that, but because he decided (according to the Bible) that his design for women was particularly bad, that he would make them suffer the pain of childbirth forever.
And then (according to the Bible) when mankind, after being abandoned by their creator, looked for new gods, they were punished by being wiped off the face of the Earth.
But never mind not being able to design people properly, God also screwed up when it came to angels. Some of them stood up to him and they were banished as well.
Talk about stroppy!
But the odd thing is - at least I've always thought so - that if we assume that Heaven, Hell and God actually exist, then the Devil must be (in a way) working with God. Otherwise, without Hell, where would all the sinners go? If the Devil really wanted to piss God off, he'd just need to close Hell down. :twisted:
He's not forgiving - hence saddling Catholics with a sin that they didn't even commit.
He created Adam and Eve (if we are to believe the Bible) and when they didn't measure up to his expectations, he threw a strop and kicked them out. Never mind that his original design was obviously flawed, or they would have behaved themselves. Not just that, but because he decided (according to the Bible) that his design for women was particularly bad, that he would make them suffer the pain of childbirth forever.
And then (according to the Bible) when mankind, after being abandoned by their creator, looked for new gods, they were punished by being wiped off the face of the Earth.
But never mind not being able to design people properly, God also screwed up when it came to angels. Some of them stood up to him and they were banished as well.
Talk about stroppy!
But the odd thing is - at least I've always thought so - that if we assume that Heaven, Hell and God actually exist, then the Devil must be (in a way) working with God. Otherwise, without Hell, where would all the sinners go? If the Devil really wanted to piss God off, he'd just need to close Hell down. :twisted:
deldaisy said:
Not true Dots. My mum was very religious (quietly not the church type). My Dad was an absolute atheist. Mum was quietly confident that no matter what Dad said, she and he would end up in heaven together because her's was a forgiving god. and would forgive Dad for not believing He had NO way of arguing with that.
and would forgive Dad for not believing He had NO way of arguing with that.
Dotsie said:
deldaisy said:
Not true Dots. My mum was very religious (quietly not the church type). My Dad was an absolute atheist. Mum was quietly confident that no matter what Dad said, she and he would end up in heaven together because her's was a forgiving god. and would forgive Dad for not believing He had NO way of arguing with that.
and would forgive Dad for not believing He had NO way of arguing with that.
Jesus promised that if you believed in him, you'd have ever lasting life.
What a con!
If you're bad, you have ever lasting life anyway, in hell. :twisted:
And as God has set a precedent by banishing some of the angels from heaven, there is no guarentee that even if you do go to heaven, you'll stay there for eternity. If you don't follow the rules, you could get banished to hell.
Heaven is an autocracy! I feel sorry for any US creationists who end up there, believing they have freedom of speech, open their mouths then get instantly shunted off to hell.
Heaven seems to be a bit like Libya - only God has killed more people recently than Gaddafi. You've got a bloke at the top who's been at the top for ages and won't ever go. His son who's done a bit of travelling. (not quite sure what the holy spook does ). And if you stand up to God you get banished.
What a con!
If you're bad, you have ever lasting life anyway, in hell. :twisted:
And as God has set a precedent by banishing some of the angels from heaven, there is no guarentee that even if you do go to heaven, you'll stay there for eternity. If you don't follow the rules, you could get banished to hell.
Heaven is an autocracy! I feel sorry for any US creationists who end up there, believing they have freedom of speech, open their mouths then get instantly shunted off to hell.
Heaven seems to be a bit like Libya - only God has killed more people recently than Gaddafi. You've got a bloke at the top who's been at the top for ages and won't ever go. His son who's done a bit of travelling. (not quite sure what the holy spook does
). And if you stand up to God you get banished. Surprising to find myself halfway agreeing with the Captain, but I do on this point.
Creationism is NOT the same as Christianity. As mentioned before, one can worship Jesus and still believe in evolution (all you need to do is to say that Genesis is an allegorical representation of a billion-year evolutionary process guided behind the scenes by God. No problem.)
But I do agree that creationism is nothing like capitalism. If anything,
capitalism, unchecked, is evolution in its purest form. If you follow Dawkin's 'selfish gene' hypothesis (and I do), organisms are nothing more than a machine for ensuring that one's genetic information gets passed on to the next generation. Natural selection is nothing more than the ability of one set of genes' ability to replicate than other sets of genes, due to local conditions. All behavior of organisims, from feeding to mating to fighting, is based on a need to pass on these genes. Genes also encourage organisms to form colonies, schools, or herds as a means of using the protective value of many as a means of increasing the odds that any individual's genes will be passed on.
This is the very definition of capitalism, which is, at is core, a strategy for ensuring that one has the monetary wealth to pass ones' genes on to future generations by exploiting the labor and stupidity of others.
Creationism is NOT the same as Christianity. As mentioned before, one can worship Jesus and still believe in evolution (all you need to do is to say that Genesis is an allegorical representation of a billion-year evolutionary process guided behind the scenes by God. No problem.)
But I do agree that creationism is nothing like capitalism. If anything,
capitalism, unchecked, is evolution in its purest form. If you follow Dawkin's 'selfish gene' hypothesis (and I do), organisms are nothing more than a machine for ensuring that one's genetic information gets passed on to the next generation. Natural selection is nothing more than the ability of one set of genes' ability to replicate than other sets of genes, due to local conditions. All behavior of organisims, from feeding to mating to fighting, is based on a need to pass on these genes. Genes also encourage organisms to form colonies, schools, or herds as a means of using the protective value of many as a means of increasing the odds that any individual's genes will be passed on.
This is the very definition of capitalism, which is, at is core, a strategy for ensuring that one has the monetary wealth to pass ones' genes on to future generations by exploiting the labor and stupidity of others.
Still, some would say that organised religion at it's core is often about manipulating the gullible masses into doing what those in power say, ostensibly for the good of the religion as a whole but in reality mostly benefitting those in power.
edit: at least Capitalism is more honest about these goals
edit: at least Capitalism is more honest about these goals
Absolutely! But not always. The Amish, for example. They live like people did in the 18th century. They eschew modern technology and live mainly as farmers. They don't have a strong central power structure, nor are they particularly wealthy. Indeed, their whole way of life leaves them vulnerable to situations that could threaten their existence. For example, when tornadoes tear their communities, devastation results because they don't have TVs or phones or radios to warn them, and can only escape in horse-drawn buggies. They don't prosleytyze, and prefer not to deal with the outside world. Amish people could never live by themselves, because their way of life would threaten their ability to pass on their genes. So they live among themselves and support each other. This kind of altruistics society does aid in passing on the genes, but is really the opposite of what capitalism is about.
poohcarrot said:
...but if you're a creationist and guarenteed a place in heaven, while atheists will burn in hell, that obviously implies that creationists BELIEVE they are better.
Wow religion, alot of good points here.
I wonder, why can people not believe in whatever they want, whatever god they want or live whatever lifestyle they want as long as they dont either hurt others (both mentally & physically) or force their views down others throats?
In my eyes, God said to the devil," ok I made the world and I made people what can you do to beat that".
The devil replied "ok then I've just invented money & organised religion."
Thing is that some members are religious and could possibly get hurt by members pulling what they believe in apart.
Religion be it right or wrong actually makes believers happy on the whole, gives them a sense of worth and belonging, why not let them feel happy have a sense of worth and feel they belong to something?.
Just a thought.
I wonder, why can people not believe in whatever they want, whatever god they want or live whatever lifestyle they want as long as they dont either hurt others (both mentally & physically) or force their views down others throats?
In my eyes, God said to the devil," ok I made the world and I made people what can you do to beat that".
The devil replied "ok then I've just invented money & organised religion."
Thing is that some members are religious and could possibly get hurt by members pulling what they believe in apart.
Religion be it right or wrong actually makes believers happy on the whole, gives them a sense of worth and belonging, why not let them feel happy have a sense of worth and feel they belong to something?.
Just a thought.
