SPOILERS Science of Discworld - Judgement Day *Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
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Finished it now and if Terry wrote the Discworld sections then he was having a really bad 10 minutes (that's all it could have taken to produce them) The only good writing was in the science sections (loved the piano/higgs analogy 
) None of the characters were in character, the writing was clunky to say the least and it just didn't feel right 
Basic advice to Discworld fans who don't do the 'science' bits is avoid this book at all costs
) None of the characters were in character, the writing was clunky to say the least and it just didn't feel right Basic advice to Discworld fans who don't do the 'science' bits is avoid this book at all costs
The book finally arrived and I ploughed through most of the science bits, finally skipping to read the Discworld novella. It's almost a short story. I have the feeling that Sir Terry didn't want to write another TSoD but the others did, and he saw a chance to express some exasperation. I'm a completist, so I don't regret buying it, but it really is short. I hope the time that wasn't spent on making this one longer is being well spent on improving the other three? books in progress.
He did create a reasonably clear depiction of the slippery, keep-changing-the-definitions methods of the hard-line Omnians who wouldn't even accept a personal statement from their own god that differed from their dogma. I wish Pastor Oats could go back and give them a good cleaning out, but I guess it's against Brutha's principles. The fact that Om has some power tells me that the jackasses who showed up theoretically in his name are not the majority.
I did notice one thing that the editor should have caught: Glenda says that no women other than kitchen staff are allowed in UU - but there are housekeeping staff too. Mrs. Whitlow would have something to say about that!
I am amazed at Marjorie Daw's ability to run in high heels on cobblestones; perhaps her brand-name shoes are better-made for that than any I have encountered.
Ponder seemed to be a bit slow on the uptake.
He did create a reasonably clear depiction of the slippery, keep-changing-the-definitions methods of the hard-line Omnians who wouldn't even accept a personal statement from their own god that differed from their dogma. I wish Pastor Oats could go back and give them a good cleaning out, but I guess it's against Brutha's principles. The fact that Om has some power tells me that the jackasses who showed up theoretically in his name are not the majority.
I did notice one thing that the editor should have caught: Glenda says that no women other than kitchen staff are allowed in UU - but there are housekeeping staff too. Mrs. Whitlow would have something to say about that!
I am amazed at Marjorie Daw's ability to run in high heels on cobblestones; perhaps her brand-name shoes are better-made for that than any I have encountered.
Ponder seemed to be a bit slow on the uptake.
Spanky and Defenestration; SoD4JD
Hello, I'm new. My first Discworld post *gulps*.
I was pleased that Glenda was back and Pastor Oats, but no sign of Mister Nutt. And apart from Angua and the Librarian, I think, it was mostly all human characters. I was awaiting more from Mr Slant, but Lord Vetinari took over and waved his gavel all over the place. I was thrilled that Slant stood up and talked to a god (Om); previously, I'd assumed that Discworld undead were extremely sensitive to religious objects/gods. It seems only most vampires are. Zombies can talk to a god!
I find it interesting that Vetinari is religious. I always thought he had a bit of magic in reserve. It turns out he prefers goddesses to blow his bubbles in the bath. I fear Vetinari's gone a bit nutty. I'm not sure if this is character development, say, the beginnings of Vetinari going mad, or whether Terry Pratchett can't talk him aloud as well. But Lord Vetinari tells the whole courtroom of, well, his bathroom prayers. And I would highly prefer if he SHOWED him defenestrating assassins, rather than have Angua TELL us.
I'm glad that Majorie Daw isn't a Mary Sue. I'm getting sick of Unseen University's sexism (and racism, and specieism). It's starting to spoil Discworld how sexist the University is. I'd hoped Esk would've achieved better from ISWM.
Also, it seems Pratchett has worked his way through hanky, panky, and now spanky. I think wanky's next. Anybody else? It may hit Nobby.
I had trouble ploughing through the science bits. The pianologists left me confused. Do they really exist in science as a metaphor, or did Pratchett make it all up? I usually love the science sections, especially in the first book. I feel they improved my science awareness. Unfortunately to them, I'm already an atheist, and the hammering on religion in later science books isn't very humanistic. It's all Christo-centric, or Christian-centric. I doubt that many Creationists read Discworld. I'd prefer if they took on the least humanist aspects of society, like the classist, racist bastards in charge that Pratchett lampoons in his books. But that would interfere with the wizards, I suppose.
Hello, I'm new. My first Discworld post *gulps*.
I was pleased that Glenda was back and Pastor Oats, but no sign of Mister Nutt. And apart from Angua and the Librarian, I think, it was mostly all human characters. I was awaiting more from Mr Slant, but Lord Vetinari took over and waved his gavel all over the place. I was thrilled that Slant stood up and talked to a god (Om); previously, I'd assumed that Discworld undead were extremely sensitive to religious objects/gods. It seems only most vampires are. Zombies can talk to a god!
I find it interesting that Vetinari is religious. I always thought he had a bit of magic in reserve. It turns out he prefers goddesses to blow his bubbles in the bath. I fear Vetinari's gone a bit nutty. I'm not sure if this is character development, say, the beginnings of Vetinari going mad, or whether Terry Pratchett can't talk him aloud as well. But Lord Vetinari tells the whole courtroom of, well, his bathroom prayers. And I would highly prefer if he SHOWED him defenestrating assassins, rather than have Angua TELL us.
I'm glad that Majorie Daw isn't a Mary Sue. I'm getting sick of Unseen University's sexism (and racism, and specieism). It's starting to spoil Discworld how sexist the University is. I'd hoped Esk would've achieved better from ISWM.
Also, it seems Pratchett has worked his way through hanky, panky, and now spanky. I think wanky's next. Anybody else? It may hit Nobby.
I had trouble ploughing through the science bits. The pianologists left me confused. Do they really exist in science as a metaphor, or did Pratchett make it all up? I usually love the science sections, especially in the first book. I feel they improved my science awareness. Unfortunately to them, I'm already an atheist, and the hammering on religion in later science books isn't very humanistic. It's all Christo-centric, or Christian-centric. I doubt that many Creationists read Discworld. I'd prefer if they took on the least humanist aspects of society, like the classist, racist bastards in charge that Pratchett lampoons in his books. But that would interfere with the wizards, I suppose.
Re: Spanky and Defenestration; SoD4JD
He's probably off civilizing humans somewhere, while Pastor Oats is visiting Ankh-Morpork. Someone has to continue the work.
Slant can, anyway. It did take some nerve, considering his general flammability and the tendency of Discworld gods to use lightning bolts.
Discworld gods are real, which means there's more reason to pay some small attention to the ones who can do something you like. Presumably pleasant bath bubbles are a minor enough pleasure, though it is unusual for Vetinari to express such a personal preference in public. Maybe he was being subtle in a "gods are useful for little stuff but not for important things" way.
Agreed. On the other hand, that whole scene leads to problems. Did Vetinari himself defenestrate them? We are only told that they were defenestrated, not by whom. If Vetinari did it, why did he bring them back in? I think someone else - possibly even the crowd - threw them out, and Vetinari acted to be sure the assassins would be held for investigation by the Assassins' Guild as to whether they had proper credentials. The Guild is protective of their monopoly.
It could be that the implied action scene would have been distracting from the real action, which was Marjorie Daw retrieving Roundworld.
UU is what it always has been, a parody based on certain famous Roundworld universities, though as you say, they seem to have forgotten about Esk's being officially a UU wizard, not to mention Granny who at one point was offered a chair. Susan Death has visited UU more than once as well. It's possible that Esk stayed for quite a while and as has been described, they quietly rewrote the rules so as not to include her, and managed to forget that she is female. Sir Terry did once say on alt.fan.pratchett that there was a roaring trade in false beards at UU, implying that there may be more female wizards than show up specifically in the books.
But since when is UU racist? Sir Terry rarely describes anybody physically. For instance, he doesn't go into long descriptions of All Jolson or his daughter Precious Jolson, but it's clear that they are black, as is Dave of Dave's Stamps, Coins, and Pins. The fact that (as far as I recall) Sir Terry hasn't happened to describe any particular wizard as black, Agatean, Klatchian, etc., doesn't mean there aren't any. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. UU isn't particularly speciesist either; the candle dribblers and others working there include at least one troll.
It's a metaphor that Pratchett made up. It's specifically a metaphor for the kind of physics experiments done at Cern.
Did you read the last five pages carefully?
He's probably off civilizing humans somewhere, while Pastor Oats is visiting Ankh-Morpork. Someone has to continue the work.
Slant can, anyway. It did take some nerve, considering his general flammability and the tendency of Discworld gods to use lightning bolts.
Discworld gods are real, which means there's more reason to pay some small attention to the ones who can do something you like. Presumably pleasant bath bubbles are a minor enough pleasure, though it is unusual for Vetinari to express such a personal preference in public. Maybe he was being subtle in a "gods are useful for little stuff but not for important things" way.
Agreed. On the other hand, that whole scene leads to problems. Did Vetinari himself defenestrate them? We are only told that they were defenestrated, not by whom. If Vetinari did it, why did he bring them back in? I think someone else - possibly even the crowd - threw them out, and Vetinari acted to be sure the assassins would be held for investigation by the Assassins' Guild as to whether they had proper credentials. The Guild is protective of their monopoly.
It could be that the implied action scene would have been distracting from the real action, which was Marjorie Daw retrieving Roundworld.
UU is what it always has been, a parody based on certain famous Roundworld universities, though as you say, they seem to have forgotten about Esk's being officially a UU wizard, not to mention Granny who at one point was offered a chair. Susan Death has visited UU more than once as well. It's possible that Esk stayed for quite a while and as has been described, they quietly rewrote the rules so as not to include her, and managed to forget that she is female. Sir Terry did once say on alt.fan.pratchett that there was a roaring trade in false beards at UU, implying that there may be more female wizards than show up specifically in the books.
But since when is UU racist? Sir Terry rarely describes anybody physically. For instance, he doesn't go into long descriptions of All Jolson or his daughter Precious Jolson, but it's clear that they are black, as is Dave of Dave's Stamps, Coins, and Pins. The fact that (as far as I recall) Sir Terry hasn't happened to describe any particular wizard as black, Agatean, Klatchian, etc., doesn't mean there aren't any. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. UU isn't particularly speciesist either; the candle dribblers and others working there include at least one troll.
It's a metaphor that Pratchett made up. It's specifically a metaphor for the kind of physics experiments done at Cern.
Did you read the last five pages carefully?
*fingers crossed* Hopefully the quote worked.
Al Johnson did blackface. I wish Terry Pratchett didn't have All Jolson as a character. But that's only three established black characters.
I have a hard time visualising Rincewind as black, as well as Ridcully, Ponder, the Dean, etc. If I try to race-swap all the Discworld characters, even Death sounds white. We had Klatchian wizards and sorcerors in Sourcery, as well as some witch from Krull from previous books. I presume that Klatchians are dark-skinned Asians on Discworld. Thank the frick for Discworld MUD for Agatean witches, wizards, thieves, etc.
Oh, so that's how one spells "speciesist" - three Ss. Candle dribblers aren't very high up in power or very well paid. There's also Modo the gardener. It's like implying that all the University staff and students are aliens and that the only normal people are the gardener and a candle-dribbler. Everyone else is inaccessible to anyone who isn't "alien white". I would hate to be an inhabitant and meet no one who understood my culture, a tad like Majorie Daw. However, she got on with two powerful white old men immediately - Ridcully and Vetinari!
I like reading Discworld partially "colourblind" and "gender-blind"; Pratchett is one of the few writers who can draw a city for me full of different species, genders and races without having to refer to every person individually. I know he likes history a lot, and employs a variety of eras to depict the smelly city. It's a pity his writing style is suffering with his old age (mental) illness - I can't spell his dementia.
To be honest, I can't remember the last five pages. I remember more of the first Science of Discworld with the wondrous space elevators. The fourth SoD left me puzzled and angry over historically inaccurate priests; one "good guy" equipped with an axe is like a looter out of World of Warcraft. I also wanted less nutty Vetinari and more Slant, but that's me. Multi-fandom also left me awaiting the pivotal point for when Majorie Daw (never) turned into a Mary Sue-like flat female character. I'll have to find my copy of the book for a quick re-read.
Al Johnson did blackface. I wish Terry Pratchett didn't have All Jolson as a character. But that's only three established black characters.
I have a hard time visualising Rincewind as black, as well as Ridcully, Ponder, the Dean, etc. If I try to race-swap all the Discworld characters, even Death sounds white. We had Klatchian wizards and sorcerors in Sourcery, as well as some witch from Krull from previous books. I presume that Klatchians are dark-skinned Asians on Discworld. Thank the frick for Discworld MUD for Agatean witches, wizards, thieves, etc.
Oh, so that's how one spells "speciesist" - three Ss. Candle dribblers aren't very high up in power or very well paid. There's also Modo the gardener. It's like implying that all the University staff and students are aliens and that the only normal people are the gardener and a candle-dribbler. Everyone else is inaccessible to anyone who isn't "alien white". I would hate to be an inhabitant and meet no one who understood my culture, a tad like Majorie Daw. However, she got on with two powerful white old men immediately - Ridcully and Vetinari!
I like reading Discworld partially "colourblind" and "gender-blind"; Pratchett is one of the few writers who can draw a city for me full of different species, genders and races without having to refer to every person individually. I know he likes history a lot, and employs a variety of eras to depict the smelly city. It's a pity his writing style is suffering with his old age (mental) illness - I can't spell his dementia.
To be honest, I can't remember the last five pages. I remember more of the first Science of Discworld with the wondrous space elevators. The fourth SoD left me puzzled and angry over historically inaccurate priests; one "good guy" equipped with an axe is like a looter out of World of Warcraft. I also wanted less nutty Vetinari and more Slant, but that's me. Multi-fandom also left me awaiting the pivotal point for when Majorie Daw (never) turned into a Mary Sue-like flat female character. I'll have to find my copy of the book for a quick re-read.
As I found out earlier the language isn't bleeped or flagged up in the editor.
My apologies.
I'm somewhat confused by my niece at the present date. She's accessed lots of sites and sworn all over the comments. My sibling kept her too long under parental control.
Do you have a permanent sticky post concerning swearing/language? I don't want to have anyone blocked at school/work by parental control.
Previous post edited - replaced with 'frick'. Where did you find sarcasm? I'm puzzled.
My apologies.
I'm somewhat confused by my niece at the present date. She's accessed lots of sites and sworn all over the comments. My sibling kept her too long under parental control.
Do you have a permanent sticky post concerning swearing/language? I don't want to have anyone blocked at school/work by parental control.
Previous post edited - replaced with 'frick'. Where did you find sarcasm? I'm puzzled.
Klatch is a big place. There seems to be a country named that, but also a much larger area that contains other countries. Some Klatchians are from the countries near Djelibeybi and Hersheba. Then there are the Brown Islands, not too far from Agatea. There are also the indigenous natives of XXXX. There are many ethnic groups in Ankh-Morpork, each with its own ethnic restaurants. Some arrived as barbarian invaders, others arrived as refugees. There seem to be several types of curry - some of the restaurateurs who serve curry seem to have Auriential speech patterns, others seem to have Klatchian speech patterns. I suspect there are some Ephebian restaurants as well. I'm less certain of Brindisian restaurants, since most of Ankh-Morpork seems to think they only eat two foods, but there is cultural exchange in the opera.
Sir Pterry rarely mentions any physical description. When he does, it's for a specific effect. For instance, Genua seems to be a fairly cosmopolitan city-state with a casually mixed-race culture. We don't get a detailed description of every character, but it is a reasonable assumption that at least half of the population is mixed one way or another. The details aren't given because it doesn't affect the plot. Similarly, there is no need to specify the percentage of non-blond members of the UU student body, because it doesn't affect the plot. They are wizards; color simply isn't important. "Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because -- what with trolls and dwarfs and so on -- speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green." (Witches Abroad)
They aren't "historically inaccurate" - they are accurate to Discworld. What, you think Discworld is identical to Roundworld? The whole point is that they are not the same. Also, It seems that you haven't read Carpe Jugulum or Thud, nor did you pay much attention to Pastor Oats as he was referred to in Unseen Academicals. Small Gods is where we first met the Omnians. I suggest a careful rereading.
Sir Pterry rarely mentions any physical description. When he does, it's for a specific effect. For instance, Genua seems to be a fairly cosmopolitan city-state with a casually mixed-race culture. We don't get a detailed description of every character, but it is a reasonable assumption that at least half of the population is mixed one way or another. The details aren't given because it doesn't affect the plot. Similarly, there is no need to specify the percentage of non-blond members of the UU student body, because it doesn't affect the plot. They are wizards; color simply isn't important. "Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because -- what with trolls and dwarfs and so on -- speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green." (Witches Abroad)
They aren't "historically inaccurate" - they are accurate to Discworld. What, you think Discworld is identical to Roundworld? The whole point is that they are not the same. Also, It seems that you haven't read Carpe Jugulum or Thud, nor did you pay much attention to Pastor Oats as he was referred to in Unseen Academicals. Small Gods is where we first met the Omnians. I suggest a careful rereading.
Re: Spanky and Defenestration; SoD4JD
My secondary school was an all boys school, which started allowing girls into the sixth form while I was there. Bearing in mind my dad was one of the governors, he used to get a lot of paper work from the school, and in all official documents for the first few months girls were referred to as "non-boys"
My secondary school was an all boys school, which started allowing girls into the sixth form while I was there. Bearing in mind my dad was one of the governors, he used to get a lot of paper work from the school, and in all official documents for the first few months girls were referred to as "non-boys"
I'm fine with UU being sexist. It's perfectly in keeping with the style of the place. If it was set in modern day England, rather than Victorian England, that would be a different matter. We don't know what their recruitment policy is regarding race (how many other universities are there on the Disc? Do Disc academics want to live in A-M? Universities that are big on research tend to have a more diverse faculty than ones that aren't), and since speciesism was invented by Terry anyway, that's a bit of a redundant argument. Do we even know if other species can do magic?
There are at least four now:
One at Krull, UU, One in XXXX, Brazeneck.
I think we can assume at least one in Klatch and probably one wherever Dragonbreath was studying giant clams.
We might also have to consider the various monastic orders - the Time monks, the Balancing monks, etc.
Much of what they do qualifies as magic.
Diamond King of Trolls definitely can do magical things.
The Dwarfs do broomsticks.
Whatever Pepe is, he and the dwarfs working with him are making magical chainmail.
Are we going to distinguish between being a magical entity (vampires, werewolves, elves, medium-small gods) and doing magic?
The Disc is loaded with magical creatures and entities. I'm not sure whether we should consider Igors to be a separate species; they seem to be born apparently normal-human-looking and create their preferred appearance. Their medical abilities, especially self-surgery, seem magical, especially considering the state of medical knowledge generally.
One at Krull, UU, One in XXXX, Brazeneck.
I think we can assume at least one in Klatch and probably one wherever Dragonbreath was studying giant clams.
We might also have to consider the various monastic orders - the Time monks, the Balancing monks, etc.
Much of what they do qualifies as magic.
Dotsie said:
Do we even know if other species can do magic?
The Dwarfs do broomsticks.
Whatever Pepe is, he and the dwarfs working with him are making magical chainmail.
Are we going to distinguish between being a magical entity (vampires, werewolves, elves, medium-small gods) and doing magic?
The Disc is loaded with magical creatures and entities. I'm not sure whether we should consider Igors to be a separate species; they seem to be born apparently normal-human-looking and create their preferred appearance. Their medical abilities, especially self-surgery, seem magical, especially considering the state of medical knowledge generally.
Well that depends. Do you think a vampire should have a place in the faculty? What would an elf do? My point was that there aren't many universities on the Disc, nor are there any other species that have the same mastery of magic as humans, so it's a bit daft to say that the UU is either racist or speciesist. No spells, no chair! (one spell for making a broomstick fly isn't going to impress for long)
Good point. Even if they could teach what they do, it might not be useful. Elves and vampires seem to have similar types of magic - flight, some mind control or glamours, and imperviousness to cold weather (but fortunately, elves apparently don't resurrect). Plus whatever Pepe (whatever he is) was doing to make special dwarf chainmail even more magical than the simple non-chafing kind (the special kinds we know of being (1) inertialess protection and (2) something we don't really want to know about).
None we know of anyway; Diamond King of Trolls can do magic but the average troll doesn't seem to have the talent - on the other hand, maybe there are trolls in the high Ramtops that can do magic but forget it all when they get down to warmer climates.
I think the Dwarfs may have another spell, unless all the magic in the non-chafing chainmail was being done by Pepe. I don't think he works that hard, so I think that either the Dwarfs invented it or he invented it and then taught them as a trade secret.
Still, I see your point that as far as we know, and leaving out Igors who seem to have magical surgical skills, no other species has evolved or developed magic-workers as a teachable specialty the way the humans have developed training for those who have the talent to be witches and wizards. Until or unless another species shows a similar developable potential (as opposed to something they are born being able to do), there is no evidence that UU is speciesist, and without the sort of physical descriptions that would show a bias, there is no evidence regarding racism either way. Sexism is built into the era and the parody, and has been undercut already by the aforementioned roaring trade in false beards.
None we know of anyway; Diamond King of Trolls can do magic but the average troll doesn't seem to have the talent - on the other hand, maybe there are trolls in the high Ramtops that can do magic but forget it all when they get down to warmer climates.
I think the Dwarfs may have another spell, unless all the magic in the non-chafing chainmail was being done by Pepe. I don't think he works that hard, so I think that either the Dwarfs invented it or he invented it and then taught them as a trade secret.
Still, I see your point that as far as we know, and leaving out Igors who seem to have magical surgical skills, no other species has evolved or developed magic-workers as a teachable specialty the way the humans have developed training for those who have the talent to be witches and wizards. Until or unless another species shows a similar developable potential (as opposed to something they are born being able to do), there is no evidence that UU is speciesist, and without the sort of physical descriptions that would show a bias, there is no evidence regarding racism either way. Sexism is built into the era and the parody, and has been undercut already by the aforementioned roaring trade in false beards.
