SPOILERS Small Gods Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
Whoops - boo-boo! 
I of course meant Mr. Tulip but the comment stands because Mr. Pin, frantic to get himself a decent afterlife kills Mr. Tulip for his tuber. And even then Terry's just reward system comes full circle yet again and Pin literally jumps from the fire into the
frying pan in his potatoey form... :twisted:
One constant in Discworld - don't fear the Reaper. It's the author's call you should worry about!
I of course meant Mr. Tulip but the comment stands because Mr. Pin, frantic to get himself a decent afterlife kills Mr. Tulip for his tuber. And even then Terry's just reward system comes full circle yet again and Pin literally jumps from the fire into the frying pan in his potatoey form... :twisted:
One constant in Discworld - don't fear the Reaper. It's the author's call you should worry about!
This is the first book that we meet Lu-Tze and the History Monks. They seem to have developed over the series.
What struck me after a few readings of Small Gods was the important role that Lu-Tze plays. My initial reading had placed him there as some sort of observer - but he has a much bigger role.
What do you think?
What struck me after a few readings of Small Gods was the important role that Lu-Tze plays. My initial reading had placed him there as some sort of observer - but he has a much bigger role.
What do you think?
Not really. While Terry hasn't quite worked out what he's going to do with the influence of Time and with the History Monks (6 ft. tall books rather than procrastinators), when Lu Tze returns he tells the Abbot, he's had to nudge things a bit.
The Abbot's response is "I wish you wouldn't do that sort of thing," said the abbot, fingering a pawn. "You'll overstep the mark one day." And when Lu Tze mentions that he's eliminated the century of terrible warfare, the abbot says, "Just so long as it turns out right in the end."
Matrim, I can see how your cultural background may make Dios a frightening "god-like" creature. But consider this--whether it's Dios or an Emperor, who insists that things be done this way because they've always been done that way and it's for the good of the country--the real reason may be personal, but it's also because they believe their actions are for the good of the country. Vorbis, on the other hand, couldn't give a xxx (insert local idiom) about whether his actions are for the good of the country. What he is interested in is having his own power for his sake--not because a god tells him or because he thinks it's for the good of the country. He wants (unconsciously) to become the kind of god-like figure that Terry portrays when Om goes up to Cori Celesti and finds the gods treating their worshipers as playthings. Vorbis is, in some ways, Terry's first attempt at figuring out what is truly evil.
The Abbot's response is "I wish you wouldn't do that sort of thing," said the abbot, fingering a pawn. "You'll overstep the mark one day." And when Lu Tze mentions that he's eliminated the century of terrible warfare, the abbot says, "Just so long as it turns out right in the end."
Matrim, I can see how your cultural background may make Dios a frightening "god-like" creature. But consider this--whether it's Dios or an Emperor, who insists that things be done this way because they've always been done that way and it's for the good of the country--the real reason may be personal, but it's also because they believe their actions are for the good of the country. Vorbis, on the other hand, couldn't give a xxx (insert local idiom) about whether his actions are for the good of the country. What he is interested in is having his own power for his sake--not because a god tells him or because he thinks it's for the good of the country. He wants (unconsciously) to become the kind of god-like figure that Terry portrays when Om goes up to Cori Celesti and finds the gods treating their worshipers as playthings. Vorbis is, in some ways, Terry's first attempt at figuring out what is truly evil.
I agree with what Swreader said above, and that exactly why I also agree with Matrim, Dios is more terryfying.
An evil person, who is clearly evil, you can recognise him without much difficult as an evil person is terrible, much more terrible, yes, but people that maybe inside are not that evil because they think they do everything for the greater good, or something, come in disguise and are not always easy to recognise. On a book, while you know what they do even if other characters don't, that's scary.
I mean, I don't know if I really understand all the fuss behind changing tradition etc, but when you read about people like Dios they're even more irritating and scary than the true evil ones , because they are more difficult to recognise for what they really do or cause to other people.
An evil person, who is clearly evil, you can recognise him without much difficult as an evil person is terrible, much more terrible, yes, but people that maybe inside are not that evil because they think they do everything for the greater good, or something, come in disguise and are not always easy to recognise. On a book, while you know what they do even if other characters don't, that's scary.
I mean, I don't know if I really understand all the fuss behind changing tradition etc, but when you read about people like Dios they're even more irritating and scary than the true evil ones , because they are more difficult to recognise for what they really do or cause to other people.
Tonyblack said:
This is the first book that we meet Lu-Tze and the History Monks. They seem to have developed over the series.
What struck me after a few readings of Small Gods was the important role that Lu-Tze plays. My initial reading had placed him there as some sort of observer - but he has a much bigger role.
What do you think?
What struck me after a few readings of Small Gods was the important role that Lu-Tze plays. My initial reading had placed him there as some sort of observer - but he has a much bigger role.
What do you think?
Tonyblack said:
This is the first book that we meet Lu-Tze and the History Monks. They seem to have developed over the series.
What struck me after a few readings of Small Gods was the important role that Lu-Tze plays. My initial reading had placed him there as some sort of observer - but he has a much bigger role.
What do you think?
What struck me after a few readings of Small Gods was the important role that Lu-Tze plays. My initial reading had placed him there as some sort of observer - but he has a much bigger role.
What do you think?
:
Tonyblack said:
This is the first book that we meet Lu-Tze and the History Monks. They seem to have developed over the series.
What struck me after a few readings of Small Gods was the important role that Lu-Tze plays. My initial reading had placed him there as some sort of observer - but he has a much bigger role.
What do you think?
What struck me after a few readings of Small Gods was the important role that Lu-Tze plays. My initial reading had placed him there as some sort of observer - but he has a much bigger role.
What do you think?
Quatermass said:
Tonyblack said:
This is the first book that we meet Lu-Tze and the History Monks. They seem to have developed over the series.
What struck me after a few readings of Small Gods was the important role that Lu-Tze plays. My initial reading had placed him there as some sort of observer - but he has a much bigger role.
What do you think?
What struck me after a few readings of Small Gods was the important role that Lu-Tze plays. My initial reading had placed him there as some sort of observer - but he has a much bigger role.
What do you think?
Thief of time aside he's been background in a few of the others.
He definitely played a huge if understated role in Omnias move forward. He's a form of loan agent who makes his own rules up and is tolerated because sometimes thats what you need to get things done.
Finally got the Book of enlightenment diary so i'm looking forward to perusing it over Christmas
It's quite subtle, but it's mentioned that Lu-Tze isn't interested in gardening, just in making piles of compost etc. It's one of these piles that Om lands on and he makes the comment that it was amazing that he'd landed in one of the very few soft places around there.
So not only does Lu-Tze save Om from being roasted in the sun, but he also saves him from being smashed to bits by the eagle.
So not only does Lu-Tze save Om from being roasted in the sun, but he also saves him from being smashed to bits by the eagle.
First, a request (generated this time by Quatermass's reference to The Doctor)--if any of us are referring to a character who is totally outside the Pratchett cannon, please identify them clearly and explain for those of us not familiar with that book/character why they are relevant. Tony explained that this was a reference, he said, to Dr. Who--a series I'm not familiar with.
Going back to the question of Lu Tze, or in fact to the first pages of the book--it is, in fact, the 493rd Abbot who sends him to deal with the "problem of Omnia". Clearly, Terry hasn't fully developed his ideas about the role of the History Monks, and even more about Lu Tze, in this book. He is described, in this opening passage, as one of the Abbot's most senior monksrather than as the sweeper role he plays in every other book. And he is a deus ex machina (even more than the Abbot intended) in making sure that Om not only survives but that he and Brutha are jointly educated by each other.
I think that Terry is using the monks in this book really as a plot device--a machine that makes sure that a certain small god survives and learns something. I think that Terry is really trying to explore religions and philosophy (not the nature of Time). But the question of Time and certain individual characters (or in at least one case deceased characters) is something that Terry begins to see more and more as a significant factor. But here, he is more concerned with the nature of gods, religions, and human beings (especially who creates whom).
And one last question to throw out for thought--how does Brutha become wise enough to encompass the material of the library and thus to create a somewhat better church. But, we know from later books, that the church has suffered from different problems after Brutha's death.
Going back to the question of Lu Tze, or in fact to the first pages of the book--it is, in fact, the 493rd Abbot who sends him to deal with the "problem of Omnia". Clearly, Terry hasn't fully developed his ideas about the role of the History Monks, and even more about Lu Tze, in this book. He is described, in this opening passage, as one of the Abbot's most senior monksrather than as the sweeper role he plays in every other book. And he is a deus ex machina (even more than the Abbot intended) in making sure that Om not only survives but that he and Brutha are jointly educated by each other.
I think that Terry is using the monks in this book really as a plot device--a machine that makes sure that a certain small god survives and learns something. I think that Terry is really trying to explore religions and philosophy (not the nature of Time). But the question of Time and certain individual characters (or in at least one case deceased characters) is something that Terry begins to see more and more as a significant factor. But here, he is more concerned with the nature of gods, religions, and human beings (especially who creates whom).
And one last question to throw out for thought--how does Brutha become wise enough to encompass the material of the library and thus to create a somewhat better church. But, we know from later books, that the church has suffered from different problems after Brutha's death.
Without Lu-Tse there to make sure that Om survives to make contact with Brutha and then to escape from nassssty Vorbis is the stuff of small miracles that Terry eventually moulds into the full-blown magnificence of ToT and NW. Also remember that we actually see the Monks right back in the early days in Mort - remember on his first night of deputising (or perhaps when Death showed him the ropes) Mort took the soul of the Abbot and dropped him off in the nearby village for him to be conceived again on the next notch of re-incarnation? Then of course we get the next Abbot as a bikkit and lephant demanding toddler dispensing wisdom for ToT in between acting his body age - genius!
So with that it's a case of Terry playing around with different ideas for the Abbot at least - the one around the 50th mark having to be removed because he placing bets too well and too much and with the 493rd Abbot sending Lu-Tse to Omnia but also to take in some other important bits and pieces of history along the way. It takes him 4 years to get to Omnia we're told, so no Procrastinators or even 'slicing' for SG either.
That's really another deus ex machina relating to Brutha's phenomenal 'photographic' memory and works in the same way that he remembers the way into and out of the Labyrinth - it's just something he can 'do', and can't understand why everyone else can't. In the Library he OD's on the scrolls and books effectively and hasn't got time anyway to commit all of them to his memory. Then afterwards on Urn's steam boat he's already assimilating some of the knowledge when he can identify the sea creatures and their classification and names without actually knowing what's been written - and that's how the books are restored once the adventure is over and he's the Cenobiarch - he has be taught how to read and write so he can get the non-illustrated works out of his head. Presumably this is also probably the reason, or part of it, why he has to live to such a great age - in order to get all that info out and re-written.
The actual method by which he memorises the scroll is, I think, partially inspired by this film, a spoof of James Bond in which the Brown Cow character (Barbara Windsor) also has a photographic memory and absorbs secret plans simply by looking at them and blinking them into her head (unfortunately I can't find a clip of her doing this, but Brit Carry On fans will know what I'm on about...)
Then of course we get the next Abbot as a bikkit and lephant demanding toddler dispensing wisdom for ToT in between acting his body age - genius! So with that it's a case of Terry playing around with different ideas for the Abbot at least - the one around the 50th mark having to be removed because he placing bets too well and too much and with the 493rd Abbot sending Lu-Tse to Omnia but also to take in some other important bits and pieces of history along the way. It takes him 4 years to get to Omnia we're told, so no Procrastinators or even 'slicing' for SG either.
That's really another deus ex machina relating to Brutha's phenomenal 'photographic' memory and works in the same way that he remembers the way into and out of the Labyrinth - it's just something he can 'do', and can't understand why everyone else can't. In the Library he OD's on the scrolls and books effectively and hasn't got time anyway to commit all of them to his memory. Then afterwards on Urn's steam boat he's already assimilating some of the knowledge when he can identify the sea creatures and their classification and names without actually knowing what's been written - and that's how the books are restored once the adventure is over and he's the Cenobiarch - he has be taught how to read and write so he can get the non-illustrated works out of his head. Presumably this is also probably the reason, or part of it, why he has to live to such a great age - in order to get all that info out and re-written.
The actual method by which he memorises the scroll is, I think, partially inspired by this film, a spoof of James Bond in which the Brown Cow character (Barbara Windsor) also has a photographic memory and absorbs secret plans simply by looking at them and blinking them into her head (unfortunately I can't find a clip of her doing this, but Brit Carry On fans will know what I'm on about...)
A very minor point, but one of the Ephebian philosophers - Xeno (with the theory of a tortoise outrunning an arrow?) gets mentioned in several books and even in one of the Science series and it struck me re-reading that depending on how you pronounce that name it's similar to the title of the top cleric the Cenobiarch (if you go with a soft 'C' and 'X' as in circus and xylophone)?
What made it click with me was thinking about the general politics of Omnia and it's central xenophobia of the surrounding countries and indeed the rest of the Disc, seeing all non-Omnians as a threat to their theocracy...?
What made it click with me was thinking about the general politics of Omnia and it's central xenophobia of the surrounding countries and indeed the rest of the Disc, seeing all non-Omnians as a threat to their theocracy...?
The philosophers think they'll have to teach Brutha to read & write so he can transcribe the scrolls (while they're on Urn's ship).And initially, he is puzzled and frustrated by all the knowledge in his head--but feels it's not something he can comprehend. But Brutha (and Vorbis) are both washed ashore, and Brutha & Om begin to have a lot more philosophical insight than can be accounted for by your description, Jan.
I think that Terry rather pulls a fast one by giving us a slight suggestion that although Brutha can remember and even "read" the scrolls while on board the ship, he can't understand what he's read. He knows about the squid being cartilaginous--but doesn't know what the word means. There is no time for him to have been tutored on reading--so we are left with the fact that Brutha (who seems the slowest of the slow) ends the book with not just the ability to think (which would be significant) but with the power to modify a religion, to stop (with Om's help) a new war, and to spend 100 years developing the church. Terry uses Brutha, I think, to expore some sophisticated ideas about men and gods and organized religion, and war and peace. But just how Brutha becomes so brilliant and thoughtful is (perhaps understandably) never explained.
I think that Terry rather pulls a fast one by giving us a slight suggestion that although Brutha can remember and even "read" the scrolls while on board the ship, he can't understand what he's read. He knows about the squid being cartilaginous--but doesn't know what the word means. There is no time for him to have been tutored on reading--so we are left with the fact that Brutha (who seems the slowest of the slow) ends the book with not just the ability to think (which would be significant) but with the power to modify a religion, to stop (with Om's help) a new war, and to spend 100 years developing the church. Terry uses Brutha, I think, to expore some sophisticated ideas about men and gods and organized religion, and war and peace. But just how Brutha becomes so brilliant and thoughtful is (perhaps understandably) never explained.
poohcarrot said:
...and of course not forgetting Lu-Tze's other major intervention in the story that saves countless lives! The bit that stops the 100 years of bloody war before it starts.
The reason there is no 100 year civil war is because the moving turtle/tank breaks down. It breaks down because the starting lever snaps. It snaps because after being made, it was supposed to be cooled slowly, but Lu-Tze pours cold water on it, thus making the metal brittle.
But I'm sure you all knew that (even though nobody mentioned it). 8)
I'll fade back into the background again.
poohcarrot said:
poohcarrot said:
...and of course not forgetting Lu-Tze's other major intervention in the story that saves countless lives! The bit that stops the 100 years of bloody war before it starts.
The reason there is no 100 year civil war is because the moving turtle/tank breaks down. It breaks down because the starting lever snaps. It snaps because after being made, it was supposed to be cooled slowly, but Lu-Tze pours cold water on it, thus making the metal brittle.
But I'm sure you all knew that (even though nobody mentioned it). 8)
I'll fade back into the background again.