SPOILERS Small Gods Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
I think that most of us (at least of those who read the discussions) got your point, Jeff. But just for the record, would that book (which you don't want to get in a Kirby cover--believe me) be PYRAMIDS?????
I'm one of those few who really don't like any of the Kirby covers--but this particular one embodies nearly all the things I find wrong or unappealing (and from a bookseller's point of view -- not designed to make you want to read it) about Kirby's covers.
Does anyone know who did the cover of the British version of Maurice?
I'm one of those few who really don't like any of the Kirby covers--but this particular one embodies nearly all the things I find wrong or unappealing (and from a bookseller's point of view -- not designed to make you want to read it) about Kirby's covers.
Does anyone know who did the cover of the British version of Maurice?
raisindot said:
You guys totally missed the point.
I have 99% of all the KIRBY cover books. The other 1% is the one Kirby cover book I don't have. I'm sure you can guess which one that is!
H-I-B
I have 99% of all the KIRBY cover books. The other 1% is the one Kirby cover book I don't have. I'm sure you can guess which one that is!
H-I-B
Though I think that your 99% figure is a touch unrealsitic. Unless Kirby did 100 books and you've got 99 of them, which I'm pretty sure he didn't, and you haven't. 8)
Jan Van Quirm said:
Another piece of verbal symbolism since we're into minutiae now Simony the denier of Om - Simon Peter chief disciple of Jesus and 1st Pope - who also 'betrayed' his god in a moment of fear and madness, but was ultimately the rock of belief in which the Turtle Moves and on which New Practical Omnism is based.
Simony the denier of Om - Simon Peter chief disciple of Jesus and 1st Pope - who also 'betrayed' his god in a moment of fear and madness, but was ultimately the rock of belief in which the Turtle Moves and on which New Practical Omnism is based.
J-I-B
Question for all, now that I've finally re-read it.
Was Vorbis at all comatose during the trek across the desert? First reading I thought he was and then recovered at the end. But on re-read I think he was faking it the entire time and did so to make Brutha do all the work (and as a means of spying on Brutha to discover what made him tick).
I also think that Vorbis did hear the voice of Om during this trek, and because Om's plans would have totally destroyed his ambition he tossed what he thought was Om into the rocks. Vorbis ultimately tries to bribe Brutha to buy his silence, but when Brutha challenges him he arranges a turtle crucifixion to make sure the Brutha-Om relationship is never revealed. Because Vorbis is a literalist, he can never imagine that the "small god" version of Om would ever be able to harm him.
J-I-B
Was Vorbis at all comatose during the trek across the desert? First reading I thought he was and then recovered at the end. But on re-read I think he was faking it the entire time and did so to make Brutha do all the work (and as a means of spying on Brutha to discover what made him tick).
I also think that Vorbis did hear the voice of Om during this trek, and because Om's plans would have totally destroyed his ambition he tossed what he thought was Om into the rocks. Vorbis ultimately tries to bribe Brutha to buy his silence, but when Brutha challenges him he arranges a turtle crucifixion to make sure the Brutha-Om relationship is never revealed. Because Vorbis is a literalist, he can never imagine that the "small god" version of Om would ever be able to harm him.
J-I-B
Every time I re-read Small Gods I find it more complex. And one of the puzzling questions is the one you raise--when does Vorbis "come to". But I think your original idea was correct. Vorbis, when he is found on the sea shore and picked up by Brutha is clearly comatose. And I find it difficult to believe that anyone who was conscious would submit to being pulled by one arm for as long as he does. And one suspects that sometime during the journey he slowly regains consciousness. But the real point, I think, that Terry is making is somewhat different. You are certainly right that Vorbis regains consciousness far earlier than he lets on. Some of this may be laziness--he has always made others do the "dirty work." But it seems very clear to me that Vorbis NEVER hears Om. On the other hand, he undoubtedly hears Brutha talking to a tortoise that he clearly believes to be Om. And Brutha's side of the conversation makes clear that Brutha and Om are terribly dangerous to Vorbis's plans. If Vorbis is to take the credit for crossing the desert, he has to get rid of the tortoise (which he thinks is Om), and disable Brutha so that he can carry him in. The conversation between Brutha and Vorbis after they are back in the temple about the "fundamental truth" of their desert experiences confirms this. Vorbis is hoping that Brutha can still be shaped by the old ideas--but he still is not sure.
Vorbis cannot believe that Brutha will ever escape from his control--he shapes him by his belief in the difference between the fundamental truth and just plain, ordinary (but real) truth. And as long as Brutha believes this, he is the pawn that Vorbis can manipulate. But when Brutha's mind overrides his old condition so that he he refuses to act as Vorbis confidently expects, Brutha refuses to strike Vorbis. This is the only time that Vobis (briefly) completely gives in to rage. This leads inevitably to his attempt to kill Brutha.
Vorbis is anything but a literalist. He believes only in his fundamental truth--which is the opposite of the real, literal truth. His problem with Brutha (and therefore with Om) is that he has finally met someone who has grown to the point that Vorbis can no longer shape his beliefs. He attempts to kill Brutha, but since he never heard Om, he believes he killed the right tortoise--a fatal mistake.
Vorbis cannot believe that Brutha will ever escape from his control--he shapes him by his belief in the difference between the fundamental truth and just plain, ordinary (but real) truth. And as long as Brutha believes this, he is the pawn that Vorbis can manipulate. But when Brutha's mind overrides his old condition so that he he refuses to act as Vorbis confidently expects, Brutha refuses to strike Vorbis. This is the only time that Vobis (briefly) completely gives in to rage. This leads inevitably to his attempt to kill Brutha.
Vorbis is anything but a literalist. He believes only in his fundamental truth--which is the opposite of the real, literal truth. His problem with Brutha (and therefore with Om) is that he has finally met someone who has grown to the point that Vorbis can no longer shape his beliefs. He attempts to kill Brutha, but since he never heard Om, he believes he killed the right tortoise--a fatal mistake.
I agree with you Sharlene - Vorbis definitely was out of it from the beach and I think remained that way until after they'd met St. Ungulant.
So far as Om and the other small gods were concerned Vorbis never heard any of them and none of them could reach into his sub-consiousness even whilst he was comatose let alone when he began to recover. That I think is most significant because he would have had no defence to their assault if he'd been at all susceptible to hear the spirits whilst he was out of it as he would have been wide open to their calling and they were just bouncing off his inviolate skull and 'soul' presumably, which had never entertained any thoughts but his own.
If Vorbis is a literalist it's only in this respect - there is nothing to believe in except what he creates and his soul is therefore closed to everything.
So far as Om and the other small gods were concerned Vorbis never heard any of them and none of them could reach into his sub-consiousness even whilst he was comatose let alone when he began to recover. That I think is most significant because he would have had no defence to their assault if he'd been at all susceptible to hear the spirits whilst he was out of it as he would have been wide open to their calling and they were just bouncing off his inviolate skull and 'soul' presumably, which had never entertained any thoughts but his own.
If Vorbis is a literalist it's only in this respect - there is nothing to believe in except what he creates and his soul is therefore closed to everything.
I've been looking forward to reading this thread after rereading the book, and it was well worth the wait, some great discussion here as expected, and I hadn't realised that Lu-Tze was responsible for saving Om from the eagle.
On my first pass through the series this was my favourite, and it's still right up there, although I did enjoy Reaper Man even more this time round I think. SG is wonderful but I did find it a bit slow this time around, and I think the Queen of the Sea bit could have been left out. However the book does have one of the greatest endings, and I think Vorbis is probably the scariest of all the villains. It is possible to feel pity for Dios, not so for Vorbis. And SG vs Pyramids: SG, no question for me.
Does anyone think that Brutha may have been intended to be autistic, with his 'slow and simple' manner, illiteracy and eidetic memory, and could this be what enables him to hear Om when no-one else can?
On my first pass through the series this was my favourite, and it's still right up there, although I did enjoy Reaper Man even more this time round I think. SG is wonderful but I did find it a bit slow this time around, and I think the Queen of the Sea bit could have been left out. However the book does have one of the greatest endings, and I think Vorbis is probably the scariest of all the villains. It is possible to feel pity for Dios, not so for Vorbis. And SG vs Pyramids: SG, no question for me.
Does anyone think that Brutha may have been intended to be autistic, with his 'slow and simple' manner, illiteracy and eidetic memory, and could this be what enables him to hear Om when no-one else can?
I'm with you on Pyramids vs. SG. But I love pyramids, too. I just think that SG is the best Pratchett book.
That Brutha could be autistic has occurred to me, too but I'm not an expert on it, so I can't really offer an opinion here.
On the other hand it is very clear that he really believes (what made him alone hear Om - while all other people believed in the church (or even Vorbis), not in Om himself).
That Brutha could be autistic has occurred to me, too but I'm not an expert on it, so I can't really offer an opinion here.
On the other hand it is very clear that he really believes (what made him alone hear Om - while all other people believed in the church (or even Vorbis), not in Om himself).
Yes I think Brutha comes across as autistic, maybe even a savant, but the important thing about him is that he's a clean slate - an empty vessel who is subject to being influenced. he could have gone either way in this book - Om's way or Vorbis's way, but he ultimately chooses to take his own path based on what he's learned from his experiences.
Isn't that what a belief system should be about? Believing in your own experience of life and making decisions based on them.
Isn't that what a belief system should be about? Believing in your own experience of life and making decisions based on them.
I don't think he's autistic. He doesn't have any problems relating to others that can't be explained by his upbringing. And of course, simple isn't the same as having a learning difficulty.
Whilst everyone should make their own decisions, which will inevitably be based on their own experiences, I don't think that this is the same as a belief system. If you have a belief system, it makes decisions for you, even ones you know to be wrong. It can't possibly cope with every eventuality, which is why religion is full of holes.
A belief system not based on religion is just a moral code.
Tonyblack said:
Isn't that what a belief system should be about? Believing in your own experience of life and making decisions based on them.
A belief system not based on religion is just a moral code.
What Brutha is at the beginning of the book is almost a kind of human golem. He bases nearly all of his actions and beliefs on the words he's absorbed by memorizing the Omnian holy books or by the dogmatic teachings of his instructors (who really teach memorization, rather than understanding, which is why he so infrequently needs to attend classes).
However, unlike the "king golem" of Feet of Clay, Brutha somehow is able to absorb the teachings of these texts and fully believe in them without going mad in the same way he can absorb and remember everything that ever happened to him without going into psychic overload. And unlike Dorfl, it has never occurred to him (before meeting Om) that any of these words might be anything less than 'gospel truth.'
For Brutha, there is no difference than the words of the holy texts and the coins in Vorbis' chambers--all of them are the creation of Om, and thus all are holy and worthy of his unquestioning belief.
Could Brutha have totally gone Vorbis' way? One wonders. Certainly despite his grandmother's best efforts, Brutha did not become a fire and brimstone fanatic (that he had wished her dead shows that there was some part of independent thinking in him). That, in spite of all his background and the teachings he's absorbed he is, at heart, a kind and gentle person shows that he as a moral sense that the clergy don't have. Which is perhaps why he was the only one to whom Om could have spoken.
