SPOILERS Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

[Jan Van Quirm]

Jan, we all love you and all, but....

No one elected you ref. :twisted:

I vote for Jan! The woman makes sense. Although, I don't really have a problem with your & Friede's discussion, but LilMaibe is turning it into something personal. I'm sure JIB can make his own arguments.

And BTW, "no offence" = always offensive.

Ta Dots

Jeff - my point was that the argument was turning into 'she said this' and 'I never did...' with the same points being restated with increasing acrimony and it was getting tedious to be picking away at the same ill-considered comment over 10 posts and counting?

As for playing ref/enforcer/whistle-blower - I've often done that on here plenty of time before haven't I - usually with pooh admittedly? 8) My default forum persona is moderator, even if it's not an official capacity on here and if I think the personal fisticuffs is getting too pointed and/or pointless I will say something about it because it ends up with 2, or in this case 3 otherwise sensible and considerate people clogging up the threads with tat (the 'tit for' variety) and scaring away people who might otherwise have something interesting to say.

Your instincts to agree to disagree are fine, but then you go back to the grudge fest? C'mon - wouldn't you say the same if the boot were on the other foot? :twisted:

Meeps and Friede - just chill and move on occasionally OK?

 

[Anonymous]

Meeps and Friede - just chill and move on occasionally OK?

I somewhere offered a compromise. She ignored it.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

*wags finger* :twisted:

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

OK - so Terry's humour's coming in for some stick in Snuff as well it seems and one thing I have to take issue with people saying is that humour is unimportant in Discworld. 'Pointless jokes' was one of the phrases used I think, as in ain't it great that he's leaving that all behind with his more mature style.

Well I'm sorry to have to be racist, but the whole point in Terry's writing is to use the best traditions of English satirical humour as the key to his exposition of the various themes he explores in all his books. It's vital to his plotlines and the flow and for him to be praised for not including the odd joke here and there to punctuate and throw some light in to highlight the shadows of the more serious issues he's exploring is really throwing the baby out with the bathwater. My opinion of anything he's ever written in fact - the humour is non-negotiable and has to be present.

Of his later works, imagine Reg Shoe in Nightwatch not being a sad wannabe politically-aware clown, even being denied the heroic rebel death he craves - that's our Terry at his best. Or whether Ronnie Soak's transformation back into his original role would be quite so effective if he was anything but a milkman as his alter ego...? Life is silly and tiresome and cruel and yes, most definitely pointless for most people if you look too closely, and so you need the daftness in with the brilliance as a kind of huge glorious gumbo of satirical milking of the human condition, whether that's silicon-based, mammalian or subterranean?

So long may Terry keep on lacing in the painful punes, the custard pie jokes and scatological references - they are valid parts of his oeuvre because they enhance the mix of his heavier elements and make us laugh at the ridiculous premises of racism, slavery and abuse of whatever stripe against the weak and the 'not us' mentality. Long may he continue to heap irreverant rip-roaring scorn and belly laughs at life's bigotry and double standards. :twisted:

 

[Anonymous]

Agreed.
What makes me wonder, if I may add that, I actually heard quite a few times before that people like the more recent books more because there are less jokes in them and everything is far more serious and heavy-handed. Okay, they don't say heavy-handed, but I once heard someone say 'it's better when a book spells its moral out'

(Frankly, if a book needs to hammer something home for someone, I doubt that someone's clever enough to actually learn from the moral)

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

A good writer doesn't have to use a hammer of any description (be it comedic or tragic etc etc) to get their point across - all the time. It's a question of emphasis and balance surely - sometimes it needs to be punchy and no-holds barred, in your face powerful and other times it can just get the merest little feather-like stroke across the funny bone and the point is made almost by stealth?

Terry's forte is in getting across the difference between passion and, for instance, obsession and sketching out where the line gets crossed and it all gets twisted into something toxic as with Cosmo Lavish's fixation with Vetinari and the nature of power which has nothing too much to do with the outwardly obvious and everything to do with finesse and the unseen attributes. Bad example maybe (I loathe the Moist novels with an unholy passion) but it says something that while I may not like the subject matter or hero I can still find things to admire in the writing and the way the story unfolds. I seriously think that Terry cannot write an unreadable book.

 

[raisindot]

And we're having this exchange on a site that may in all likelihood probably owned by Rupert Murdoch!

..................wut.

Harper Collins, Pterry's publisher, is a Murdoch subsidiary. Not sure who owns this site, but if it is owned by HC, then the man himself is running this show. Because I figure he has nothing more to do all day than monitor fiction sites.

 

[Quatermass]

(I loathe the Moist novels with an unholy passion)

Maybe you should dry them out, or keep them in a humidity-controlled cabinet.

I seriously think that Terry cannot write an unreadable book.

There are very few books that I consider completely unreadable. Even Atlas Shrugged, onerous as it is, has one or two interesting characters and the intriguing mystery of John Galt, even if Ayn Rand does not know how to balance entertainment and spewing her philosophy all over the page.

There are some books of Terry Pratchett's that fall down. My worst two Terry Pratchett (or rather, Discworld) books, Eric and Pyramids fall down for different reasons. Eric has some humour, but no real substance to the storyline and isn't as fun as it should be. Pyramids has a very good first part, but the rest of the story is about as dry and entertaining as the sands of Djelibeybi.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

From the ultra small blurb as the base of the main site homepage - Transworld Publishers are part of The Random House Group Limited

It wouldn't surprise me if it was part of the ebil empire but here's Terry entry on the RH site

 

[raisindot]

Stratford and Gravid Rust are completely forgettable, was Gravid even physically present in any of the scenes? if he was then i can't remember him.

Agreed. It's not clear to me whether Pterry meant for Gravid to actually have on-page time, or whether he was supposed to be a 'behind the scenes' character who Vetinari, rather than Vimes, would actually deal with. If so, then why even feature old Lord Rust? Or why not feature both Lord Rust and Gravid together? It's hard to hate an offscreen character.

And Stratford is little more than a pale clone of Carcer. He's not menacing, and not particularly dangerous.


SPOILERS A'COMING



And the way these characters are treated demonstrates the differences between the old Vimes and the 'new' Vimes.

At the end of Night Watch, Vimes is so concerned the Carcer will attack Sybil that he assigns the entire Watch to guard the house (apparently, in Night Watch, Willikens wasn't enough of a deterrent), and literally runs to his house 'in the nudd' to to protect her, so thorough his fear is.

In Snuff, only Willikens is assigned to protect Sybil and young Sam when he's off chasing a Stratford who may or may not be on the boat. Of course, Willlikens is the most qualified, but wouldn't you think Vimes would have called out the entire town (including the bartender, an ex copper)?

And when Vimes finally does capture Stratford on the cruise in Snuff, he has set it up as an elaborate trap--just another one of supercop games. Vimes doesn't see Stratford as a threat at all. He's become so powerful that nothing scares him anymore.

That, in a nutshell, is the difference between the old Vimes and new Vimes. In my head, I prefer the old Vimes. Of course, your mileage may vary.

 

[Penfold]

Stratford and Gravid Rust are completely forgettable, was Gravid even physically present in any of the scenes? if he was then i can't remember him.

Agreed. It's not clear to me whether Pterry meant for Gravid to actually have on-page time, or whether he was supposed to be a 'behind the scenes' character who Vetinari, rather than Vimes, would actually deal with. If so, then why even feature old Lord Rust? Or why not feature both Lord Rust and Gravid together? It's hard to hate an offscreen character.

On that point, it might be worth mentioning that we never meet Moriarty in the Sherlock Holmes books either (arguably literature's greatest detective stories) until a brief scene in "The Final Problem" and his death at the Reichanbach Falls was only touched upon in summery by Dr. Watson at the end of that story. I was left wondering whether Sir Terry intends using Gravid in a similar role as a hidden scheming menace only alluded to in future stories in much the same way Conan Doyle used Moriarty. Of course, I could be (and probably am) completely wrong.

 

[Quatermass]

Stratford and Gravid Rust are completely forgettable, was Gravid even physically present in any of the scenes? if he was then i can't remember him.

Agreed. It's not clear to me whether Pterry meant for Gravid to actually have on-page time, or whether he was supposed to be a 'behind the scenes' character who Vetinari, rather than Vimes, would actually deal with. If so, then why even feature old Lord Rust? Or why not feature both Lord Rust and Gravid together? It's hard to hate an offscreen character.

On that point, it might be worth mentioning that we never meet Moriarty in the Sherlock Holmes books either (arguably literature's greatest detective stories) until a brief scene in "The Final Problem" and his death at the Reichanbach Falls was only touched upon in summery by Dr. Watson at the end of that story. I was left wondering whether Sir Terry intends using Gravid in a similar role as a hidden scheming menace only alluded to in future stories in much the same way Conan Doyle used Moriarty. Of course, I could be (and probably am) completely wrong.

So, what you're saying is that Pratchett intends to use Gravid Rust as a character device? If Moriarty is any indication, Gravid isn't going to be a good villain...

 

[Anonymous]

Going by the describtions so far (and what I read by now) I prefer the old Vimes, too.

To put it like this, and roll with what raisindot said:

A story lives from its conflict. Whether great or small. If you have a super-character this conflict falls flat.
Be it Vimes as described or the orc in UA.
The problems they face seem to be overcome too easily, especially in comparsion to what the text (either directly in the narrative or by other characters' reaction to a situation/obstacle) tells us about them.

But if you want to read a genuinely bad book, try 'fifth sorceress' dear gods, why was I given that as a present?!

 

[Quatermass]

But if you want to read a genuinely bad book, try 'fifth sorceress' dear gods, why was I given that as a present?!

Pffft! You haven't read bad books until you've read Atlas Shrugged. Or rather, don't, unless you're either a masochist, or want to riff it MST3K style.

 

[Anonymous]

You'll laugh, managed to get to chapter what...6? in 5th sorceress ...reading the rest through a sporking.

 

[Penfold]

So, what you're saying is that Pratchett intends to use Gravid Rust as a character device? If Moriarty is any indication, Gravid isn't going to be a good villain...

No I definitely wasn't saying that, I was merely speculating and pointing out that we never really meet Moriarty either in the Sherlock Holmes books. If it was Sir Terry's intention for Gravid to become a villain in the Moriarty vain (which, in all honesty, it probably wasn't) then he failed in this book.

 

[raisindot]

I was left wondering whether Sir Terry intends using Gravid in a similar role as a hidden scheming menace only alluded to in future stories in much the same way Conan Doyle used Moriarty. Of course, I could be (and probably am) completely wrong.

Interesting idea, but Gravid isn't really a "criminal mastermind" the way Moriarty (or even Teatime, or Lord De Worde were). The aura about him just doesn't seem there. Plus, it does seem, at the end of the book, that Vetinari will find some way to deal with Gavrid. Perhaps not in a way that involves justice, either.

 

[Dotsie]

I might well involve justice, but it won't involve the law.

I really wish he'd killed Stratford and not Wilikins. But it was obvious Wilikins wasn't going to let the attempt on young Sam's life go.

 

[Tonyblack]

I was left wondering whether Sir Terry intends using Gravid in a similar role as a hidden scheming menace only alluded to in future stories in much the same way Conan Doyle used Moriarty. Of course, I could be (and probably am) completely wrong.

Interesting idea, but Gravid isn't really a "criminal mastermind" the way Moriarty (or even Teatime, or Lord De Worde were). The aura about him just doesn't seem there. Plus, it does seem, at the end of the book, that Vetinari will find some way to deal with Gavrid. Perhaps not in a way that involves justice, either.

I don't really have time to go into it at the moment, but I feel that Gravid not actually being in the book was a very deliberate point by Terry. He is in many ways the faceless Capitalist who sits back and exploits sweatshop labour. The outwardly legitimate businessman who will ignore the law if he can make a fast buck. And he thinks he's untouchable.

It's the 'small' people like Strattford who get punished and people like Gravid who get off scot free. I liked the suggestion that Vetinari was going to quietly sort Gravid out.

But of course he doesn't appear in the book - that's the point that Terry is making.

 

[Anonymous]

Totally related to the thread