SPOILERS Snuff *Warning Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
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Sharlene, I understand. In your world, if people express viewpoints with which you disagree it's either a 'willful misinterpretation' or 'ABSOLUTELY WRONG AND UTTER TOSH.' Generally in literary discussions, people either try to refute a position by countering it with examples (as I have done several times), or simply say, "I will respectfully agree to disagree and let's leave it at that."
Not only am I surprised to know that you've have appointed yourself as the rightful interpreter of Pterry's literary intentions, but I am also quite honored that you have resorted to patronizing ad hominem, because it demonstrates that you've run out of logical counterarguments.
But don't worry--I shall not carry this particular tangent any further.
Not only am I surprised to know that you've have appointed yourself as the rightful interpreter of Pterry's literary intentions, but I am also quite honored that you have resorted to patronizing ad hominem, because it demonstrates that you've run out of logical counterarguments.
But don't worry--I shall not carry this particular tangent any further.
Regarding the goblins - Vimes immediately recognized their personhood when they demanded justice for the goblin-woman that was killed and when he saw them in their cave. But most people were used to treating goblins like vermin, thinking nothing of killing them (or in this community - of enslaving them). Miss Beedle's goal is to do what was needed to help the goblins. She improved their diets. Literacy is a skill that is useful on its own and can revolutionize goblin society. But yes, she also taught them how to make themselves more presentable to humans. Because humans are the most privileged and dominant species on the disc. And humans have the power to destroy goblins if they want to. The plight of the goblins is acute, they shouldn't have to wait for all the lifetimes it would take for humans to become more enlightened.
The story acknowledges this, with Angua and Billy, the urban goblin. Angua is disappointed that Billy took a human name, prefers speaking Morporkian to goblin and doesn't follow goblin religion. Her thought is that they are all becoming human - human goblins, human werewolves, human dwarfs, human trolls, they are all smelted in the Ankh Morpork melting pot that works only one way.
Maybe in several generations future goblins, if their status as citizens with rights becomes stable, there will be a young generation that may want to restore a goblin identity. Of course by then they will have a hard time finding authentic goblin culture.
This is realistic. Having humans change their minds about goblins based on understanding goblins on their own terms is not something that can happen fast enough to save goblins from oppression that is taking place now. The goblins don't have the leisure to do things this way.
The story acknowledges this, with Angua and Billy, the urban goblin. Angua is disappointed that Billy took a human name, prefers speaking Morporkian to goblin and doesn't follow goblin religion. Her thought is that they are all becoming human - human goblins, human werewolves, human dwarfs, human trolls, they are all smelted in the Ankh Morpork melting pot that works only one way.
Maybe in several generations future goblins, if their status as citizens with rights becomes stable, there will be a young generation that may want to restore a goblin identity. Of course by then they will have a hard time finding authentic goblin culture.
This is realistic. Having humans change their minds about goblins based on understanding goblins on their own terms is not something that can happen fast enough to save goblins from oppression that is taking place now. The goblins don't have the leisure to do things this way.
Literacy means people can have access to information from people they don't have direct contact with, people from different times or places. It also means they can pass on information with less distortion to someone who isn't in direct contact with them. It means their society can start accumulating memories of more than a couple of generations. It means not being required to rely on memory, thus freeing the brain from this task and leaving more brain-power for creativity. The benefit may not be immediate but literacy is a game changer.
I'm rereading Snuff at the moment and some things are a lot clearer this time. For example, it's Stinky who invokes the Summoning Dark by touching Sam Vimes on the arm that still has the 'exit wound' and asking for "just ice".
We know from Thud! that a plea for help to the sign of the Summoning Dark gets results. It from that point on that Sam finds the Summoning Dark, or what's left of it, helping him to help the goblins.
We know from Thud! that a plea for help to the sign of the Summoning Dark gets results. It from that point on that Sam finds the Summoning Dark, or what's left of it, helping him to help the goblins.
A
But as said, literacy as the missionary understands it.
Look how many cultures had a rich vocal tradition, sometimes older than for example, christianity, which got lost when the missionaries came by.
Not to mention look at how many stones, tablet, scrolls etc with stories were destroyed by missionaries and fanatics because they viewed then as ungodly.
Or how many stories are still written down, but we'll never know them because missionaries viewed the language they are written in as inferior/ungodly and made sure no one could speak nor read it anymore.
Just look at how long it took to decipher Mayan, and we still don't know all the symbols. (Mayan is actually surprisingly easy)
Look how many cultures had a rich vocal tradition, sometimes older than for example, christianity, which got lost when the missionaries came by.
Not to mention look at how many stones, tablet, scrolls etc with stories were destroyed by missionaries and fanatics because they viewed then as ungodly.
Or how many stories are still written down, but we'll never know them because missionaries viewed the language they are written in as inferior/ungodly and made sure no one could speak nor read it anymore.
Just look at how long it took to decipher Mayan, and we still don't know all the symbols. (Mayan is actually surprisingly easy)
So? You won't believe how unreliable and limited oral traditions are. Things become seriously screwed up within a couple of generations. And the disc has printing technology, so loss of written culture has become significantly less likely. Now the goblins live under a clacks tower and Stinky does much of the message sending. The goblins can make themselves heard. They can contact other goblin communities.
Tonyblack said:
I'm rereading Snuff at the moment and some things are a lot clearer this time. For example, it's Stinky who invokes the Summoning Dark by touching Sam Vimes on the arm that still has the 'exit wound' and asking for "just ice".
We know from Thud! that a plea for help to the sign of the Summoning Dark gets results. It from that point on that Sam finds the Summoning Dark, or what's left of it, helping him to help the goblins.
We know from Thud! that a plea for help to the sign of the Summoning Dark gets results. It from that point on that Sam finds the Summoning Dark, or what's left of it, helping him to help the goblins.
No I don't get that at all. How is it "quite clear" that Sam Vimes has been using the SD in the previous five years? Did he use it in UA?
I must say that on this second read through, I'm really enjoying the book even more than the first time. Pratchett writes so well and I find it a real joy to immerse myself in his writing.
I must say that on this second read through, I'm really enjoying the book even more than the first time. Pratchett writes so well and I find it a real joy to immerse myself in his writing.
No, Vimes is not at all comfortable with the Summoning Dark. He keeps asking it if it's a demon. Going back to Vimes' first encounter with Stinky: Vimes is talking to Feeney, Stinky shows up demanding Just ice, touches Vimes on the arm. Vimes feels an itch.
This doesn't look like Vimes had been in that mental place since Thud!.
I don't think Stinky recognized the tattoo, I don't think Stinky knew anything but Vimes' reputation, but a strong desire for revenge combined with touching the tattoo could have awakened the SD.
This doesn't look like Vimes had been in that mental place since Thud!.
I don't think Stinky recognized the tattoo, I don't think Stinky knew anything but Vimes' reputation, but a strong desire for revenge combined with touching the tattoo could have awakened the SD.
Okay, Snuff marks the first time where Vimes USES the Summoning Dark. But he has not been completely free of its influence since Thud. In Snuff it mentions that he and the SD have crossed each other's paths, usually in dreams, so its reassertion is not a total surprise to him.
And I think I do agree with Tony that Stinky, while not necessarily 'activating' the Summoning Dark, somehow sensed its presence on Vimes. When they first meet, Stinky jumps all over Vimes and keeps on reaching for his left wrist--where the tattoo is, and asking for 'justice.' It's unlikely that Stinky actually visually 'saw' it (one assumes that Vimes doesn't walk around in shortsleeves) but somehow sensed the SD's influence on him.
So, somehow, the SD still exerts its influence over Vimes, of only in a limited way, since Vimes allegedly triumphed over it in Thud! Had Vimes had no absolutely no 'contact' with the SD over the years, then Vimes would have been totally alarmed by its reappearance and tried any way possible to control it. But, somehow, he has moved from being controlled by it to partnering with it.
And I think I do agree with Tony that Stinky, while not necessarily 'activating' the Summoning Dark, somehow sensed its presence on Vimes. When they first meet, Stinky jumps all over Vimes and keeps on reaching for his left wrist--where the tattoo is, and asking for 'justice.' It's unlikely that Stinky actually visually 'saw' it (one assumes that Vimes doesn't walk around in shortsleeves) but somehow sensed the SD's influence on him.
So, somehow, the SD still exerts its influence over Vimes, of only in a limited way, since Vimes allegedly triumphed over it in Thud! Had Vimes had no absolutely no 'contact' with the SD over the years, then Vimes would have been totally alarmed by its reappearance and tried any way possible to control it. But, somehow, he has moved from being controlled by it to partnering with it.