SPOILERS Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

[raisindot]

Raptor, you're from south Florida, so let's try this out as a roundworld scenario. (Let us assume that Willikens had not been deputized and was acting as a private citizen at the end of Snuff).

Will E. Kins, a regular citizen who also happens to be the janitor working in the office of Dade Country sheriff Stan Vines, has been riding on I-95 in his Camaro following a police van that he knows is carrying Joe Stratford, a ruthless serial murderer, from its starting point at Ft. Lauderdale police headquarters to Dade County Correctional. Suddenly, the van veers off the road and crashes into a ditch. Kins pulls over to observe.

Moments later, the back of the van blows open. Two bodies are thrown out. Kins emerges, free from his shackles, carrying a gun. Kids steps out of his car, unsheaths the Glock from his hip holster, aims it at Stratford, and tells him to drop his weapon. Stratford thinks for a moment, and then aims his gun at Kins. Kins fires first, killing Stratford. Kins gets into his car and drives away.

Sheriff Vines hears about this event over the radio. He knows that Kins is a crack shot and is rumored to have a violent criminal past, although he has never been arrested. He also saw Kins' Camaro following the van when it left the Ft. Lauderdale police station and, in the past, has often heard Kins talking about the merits of vigilante justice. He knows that Kins carries a Glock .44 caliber gun with him at all times, and also has heard from forensics that Stratford was killed by a .44 bullet, while the other policemen were killed with bullets from their own service revolvers.

In this situation, do you believe that Vins would simply let this matter rest and choose not to ask Kins where he was at the time of Stratford's death? Do you think Vins would choose not to investigate the killing? Do you think that Kins was acting purely in self defense when he killed Stratford, even though he clearly was following the van, anticipating a possible confrontation?

 

[Maggie Ogg]

I also noticed no Death in Snuff, can't remember that in any of the other books though?

 

[Anonymous]

Only the Tiffany Books lacked him AFAIK. Though there's a fantheory that that is cause the Disc is already the afterlife for Feegles.

 

[Tonyblack]

I also noticed no Death in Snuff, can't remember that in any of the other books though?

Welcome Maggie Ogg!

Yes, Death was missing in Wee Free Men. Personally, I don't have a problem with this. It's not like he HAS to be in every book.

 

[Oberon]

Welcome to the site Maggie Ogg.

 

[Bouncy Castle]

I also noticed no Death in Snuff, can't remember that in any of the other books though?

Welcome Maggie Ogg.

That's one hell of an avatar you've got there. I may have to throw buckets of cold water over the boys on here!

 

[raisindot]

Only the Tiffany Books lacked him AFAIK. Though there's a fantheory that that is cause the Disc is already the afterlife for Feegles.

I think Death was in at least the middle two Tiffany books, wasn't he?

 

[Oberon]

Only the Tiffany Books lacked him AFAIK. Though there's a fantheory that that is cause the Disc is already the afterlife for Feegles.

I think Death was in at least the middle two Tiffany books, wasn't he?

He was in a Hat Full of Sky (When Tiffany helped the Hiver to die) and in Wintersmith. (He came for Miss Treason and spoke to Tiffany).

EDIT: It's just occurred to me that in Wintersmith when The Feegles took Roland into the underworld Death was The Ferryman.

 

[Tonyblack]

I'm not sure that was Death on the ferryboat. :think:

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

Welcome to the forum Maggie Ogg, I do like to see Death in the Books though.

 

[raisindot]

You kind of wonder whether Pterry's consideration of his own mortality is influencing his decision not to feature Death in his most recent DW books (although a roundworld variant was feautured as one of the gods in Nation), the same way that the Bursar didn't appear at all in UA.

 

[Tonyblack]

You kind of wonder whether Pterry's consideration of his own mortality is influencing his decision not to feature Death in his most recent DW books (although a roundworld variant was feautured as one of the gods in Nation), the same way that the Bursar didn't appear at all in UA.

Recent? :think:

Wee Free Men was published in 2003 - that's hardly recent.

And the only other book without Death is Snuff. Yes, that's recent, but hardly a trend.

 

[Dotsie]

With Snuff, we are almost as much in the dark as Vimes. Removing the character of Death increases the mystery, and also the shock we encounter upon seeing the body of the goblin girl.

 

[raisindot]

You kind of wonder whether Pterry's consideration of his own mortality is influencing his decision not to feature Death in his most recent DW books (although a roundworld variant was feautured as one of the gods in Nation), the same way that the Bursar didn't appear at all in UA.

Recent? :think:

Wee Free Men was published in 2003 - that's hardly recent.

And the only other book without Death is Snuff. Yes, that's recent, but hardly a trend.

I consider "recent" books as those that have come out since he announced that he had Alzheimer's. That would be UA, ISWM, Nation and Snuff. Does Death appear in ISWM (can't remember)? If not, then his last three DW books do not feature Death, although there is death itself in both ISWM and Snuff.

 

[Tonyblack]

Death is indeed in I Shall Wear Midnight and, as far as I remember, he's in UA as well.

Nation isn't a Discworld book, but there is a version of Death in there.

 

[alicenanjing]

Kids steps out of his car, unsheaths the Glock from his hip holster, aims it at Stratford, and tells him to drop his weapon. Stratford thinks for a moment, and then aims his gun at Kins. Kins fires first, killing Stratford. Kins gets into his car and drives away.

Sheriff Vines hears about this event over the radio. He knows that Kins is a crack shot and is rumored to have a violent criminal past, although he has never been arrested. He also saw Kins' Camaro following the van when it left the Ft. Lauderdale police station and, in the past, has often heard Kins talking about the merits of vigilante justice. He knows that Kins carries a Glock .44 caliber gun with him at all times, and also has heard from forensics that Stratford was killed by a .44 bullet, while the other policemen were killed with bullets from their own service revolvers.

In this situation, do you believe that Vins would simply let this matter rest and choose not to ask Kins where he was at the time of Stratford's death?

Point of order: Willikins didn't "fire first". He did, indeed, tell Stratford that he intended to kill him, but he also told him that, being a fair man, he would give Stratford a chance to kill him first. He therefore stood there and let Stratford rush him with the knife, and only took the comb out of his pocket when the killer was nearly upon him, evaded the knife stroke and killed his attacker. In the book, the episode is told from the point of view of the horse. That's why it doesn't jive with your "Roundworld scenario". If you had said "lets Stratford fire, throws himself to the side, dodging the bullet, and pierces Stratford's black heart with a shot fired just as his shoulder touched the ground", I would have agreed with you.
Also, Vimes did not know where Willikins had gone because it was the butler's day off - Willikins makes a point of telling this to Stratford, stressing the whole day off thing ("Very important, your day off in lieu ") - I'm quoting from memory here, if I didn't get it exactly right I hope I'll be forgiven.
Incidentally, the whole Willikins/Stratford fight rather reminded me of the encounter in THUD, between grag Bashfulsson (was it?) and the other grag, the deep-downer, whatsisname, who attacks him with an axe and gets knocked out with some sort of dwarf Aikido.

 

[raptornx01]

Kids steps out of his car, unsheaths the Glock from his hip holster, aims it at Stratford, and tells him to drop his weapon. Stratford thinks for a moment, and then aims his gun at Kins. Kins fires first, killing Stratford. Kins gets into his car and drives away.

Sheriff Vines hears about this event over the radio. He knows that Kins is a crack shot and is rumored to have a violent criminal past, although he has never been arrested. He also saw Kins' Camaro following the van when it left the Ft. Lauderdale police station and, in the past, has often heard Kins talking about the merits of vigilante justice. He knows that Kins carries a Glock .44 caliber gun with him at all times, and also has heard from forensics that Stratford was killed by a .44 bullet, while the other policemen were killed with bullets from their own service revolvers.

In this situation, do you believe that Vins would simply let this matter rest and choose not to ask Kins where he was at the time of Stratford's death?

Point of order: Willikins didn't "fire first". He did, indeed, tell Stratford that he intended to kill him, but he also told him that, being a fair man, he would give Stratford a chance to kill him first. He therefore stood there and let Stratford rush him with the knife, and only took the comb out of his pocket when the killer was nearly upon him, evaded the knife stroke and killed his attacker. In the book, the episode is told from the point of view of the horse. That's why it doesn't jive with your "Roundworld scenario". If you had said "lets Stratford fire, throws himself to the side, dodging the bullet, and pierces Stratford's black heart with a shot fired just as his shoulder touched the ground", I would have agreed with you.
Also, Vimes did not know where Willikins had gone because it was the butler's day off - Willikins makes a point of telling this to Stratford, stressing the whole day off thing ("Very important, your day off in lieu ") - I'm quoting from memory here, if I didn't get it exactly right I hope I'll be forgiven.
Incidentally, the whole Willikins/Stratford fight rather reminded me of the encounter in THUD, between grag Bashfulsson (was it?) and the other grag, the deep-downer, whatsisname, who attacks him with an axe and gets knocked out with some sort of dwarf Aikido.

I agree with alice here and Yeah, seeing the camaro following the van is where i would cry foul with this also. Not to mention the idea of proof, Stan would have known the bullet could not be traced to Kin's gun, stan knew no matter how hard he looked he would have no evidence, and would just be wasting the taxpayers money by looking.

and you would also have to acknowledge in your scenario that this would be the second time Joe escaped. and the first time Joe escaped he went right to Stan Jr's school to wait for him to come out, he didn't go after Stan, not Kin, not even Mrs. Vines, the son. He was the dark dwarf coming through the cellar wall when he stepped out of that van and met kin. And kin killing Joe not only saved his life at that moment, but possibly saved the life of a child who had been threatened once already. and all in all don't you think it was better he was dealt with now, instead of when stan wasn't expecting it?

 

[swreader]

SPOILER ALERT

The Vimes of Snuff, who thinks about the morality of his actions and fights against his own inner beast, was born on the desert of Klatch near the end of Jingo. Before this book, Vimes really was mainly a crime-solver who only accidentally discovered that the smaller crimes were symptoms of bigger crimes. The 'certain fire' was the act of a Vimes who was dedicated to upending the social order of things through vigiliante-type actions. The Vimes of post-Jingo books would never have set such a fire.

After Jingo, the importance of the Law (and in his own role in enforcing it without going beyond it) became a cornerstone of his thinking. Vimes' actions in TFE, some of which involved killing of people, was done completely in self-defense (the bandits), or, in the case of Wolfgang, a vigilante act that had been preceded by legal actions that failed to cause Wolfgang to surrender. Remember, too, that Wolfgang was attacking Vimes when Vimes killed him; an act of self-defense, but even Vimes realizes that he was on very moral shaky ground.

I don't know where you get the idea that Vimes only develops his belief in the Law after Jingo (or where in Jingo, for that matter, you think that happens). In fact, what you're suggesting in this post bears very little resemblance to the Vimes developed in Pratchett's books. Remember that the Vimes of G!G! is a drunk at least partially because (at least since Vetinari took over) he has nothing really to do except go out and shout "All's Well" when it clearly isn't. But Vetinari hasn't (until the end of the book) realized what Vimes is capable of.He recognizes Sam's committment to the Law in his speech about the great sea of evil. Vetinari only then begins to see what Vimes and the Watch can be in contrast to what they have been in the past. In MaA, Vetinari is playing games with Vimes, but Vimes believes that his job as a Watchman is to investigate crimes, to uphold the law. Vetinari threatens him with the loss of his badge even before the wedding. But Vetinari has not apparently recognized how dangerous the gun is, and that the possessor of the gun must be caught. But in his fight with Dr. Cruces, Vimes restrains himself--rejects the gun's blandishments, and is stopped from killing Cruces, apparently, by Carrot (who tells him to put the gun down). And it is Carrot (not Vimes) who kills the murderer, Dr. Cruces.

While Vimes may have caused the fire in FofC, he does it to stop the attempts to disable Vetinari which are being organized by the Vampire (Dragon King of Arms), who has been responsible for the deaths of the two people on Vimes's home street--who are killed by the servant who brings home the candles. He may be slow to find the means of poisioning, but he forces Vetinari's hand and keeps Dorfl as a Watchman. He upholds the law.

What has become obvious as Pratchett developed Vimes as a complex character with a committment to law, but also with a dark side which he guards carefully. By Snuff, Vimes has a very strong sense of JUSTICE and if the law hasn't caught up with it, he will provide justice anyhow. He upholds the law as the best protection for the ordinary man (as distinct from the peerage and/or the wealthy). It doesn't always work, but he sees that everyone has a responsibility to uphold the concept of justice--even if they are tenants, or "ordinary people." They have weapons--although they are not the weapons of the gentry. But you're just as dead if killed by a blow from a crowbar as you are from a "morning star". And the responsibility for justice belongs to everyone, not just the police.

Willikins is an odd throwback to the best elements of the feudal system. Although he, like Vimes, has a street background and skills, he has been for many years a part of the Ramkin family, rising from scullery boy to butler of the Ankh-Morpork establishment. He feels a great deal of responsibility to protect both Sam and Young Sam. It is significant that Sam has no idea that Wilikins is following the Quirm police transport taking Stratford to Ank-Morpork. And had they been able to deliver Stratford to Ankh-Morpork, there is no reason to think that Wilikins would have acted. But, Willikins gives the murderer "fair warning" and in spite of the odds, is able to execute him. One could say that he is still acting under the quasi legal status Sam gave him to take care of Sybil and young Sam while keeping Flutter locked up. This is one case where Sam will not ask Willikins what he did, although he keeps him on a tight rein in regard to the cross-bow.

I fail to see any relevance between what Pratchett is doing in this section of Snuff and your "parody" of a very small part of the action which you've set in Florida (cum the Wild West).

 

[cabbagehead]

Slight nit-pick, swreader: in Guards! Guards! Vetinari thinks it is a good measure of his own cleverness that Vimes doesn't notice where the lock to the 'special dungeon' door is. To me this suggests that he actually already formed a view of Vimes as an intelligent and perceptive man (and that if even Vimes didn't see through Vetinari's trick it must have been very well done indeed). I think Vetinari had been waiting for a while for *Vimes* to assert himself and show what he can do.

 

[raptornx01]

In FoC the fire was, yes partly that, but also because Dragon had been manipulating people for centuries. Treating them like cattle. This was an injustice he couldn't let pass, plus it served as a punishment of sorts because dragon was so vital to the city's heritage that he knew Vetinari would probably just give him a slap on the wrist.

and MaA Vetinari DID know how dangerous the gonne was, which is why he ordered it destroyed. What he didn't recognize was how powerful the gonne's influence could be. He even mused on why HE hadn't destroyed it himself, well Leonard did anyway.