SPOILERS Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

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Turtles4Ever

Lance-Constable
Jun 6, 2010
46
1,650
Just to compare and contrast - I'm currently re-reading 'Thud!' and mentally comparing it to 'Snuff', and they truly are worlds apart. Not just in terms of the story (obviously) but the writing style, the narrative, etc.

I really do think that 'Snuff' is Terry's WORST book, but I respect others who love it. :)
 

ladyramkin

Lance-Constable
Aug 6, 2008
20
1,650
Kent
Turtles4Ever said:
Just to compare and contrast - I'm currently re-reading 'Thud!' and mentally comparing it to 'Snuff', and they truly are worlds apart. Not just in terms of the story (obviously) but the writing style, the narrative, etc.

I really do think that 'Snuff' is Terry's WORST book, but I respect others who love it. :)
I was beginning to think it was just me. I gave it a second reading , to see if I liked it any better, but no. I hate this imposter calling himself Sam Vimes. What happened to the real one? Really bitterly disappointed with this book. Sorry.
 

One Man Bucket

Lance-Corporal
Oct 8, 2010
157
2,275
I wouldn't call it his worst book but it was his worst Watch book. It managed to be readable and even enjoyable at times but it was like reading about some other people not the characters I cherish. Vimes became too perfect, the other Watch members were far too marginalised and as has been mentioned several times the way in which the goblins were recognised as sentient was far too story book. I'd have preferred a much messier method for them to be recognised like say PETA type protests and Vimes having to crack down on them despite agreeing with them
 

fids

Lance-Corporal
Apr 29, 2011
103
1,775
Hereford
Just started reading yhe book and I've only read this last page of this thread and have to disagree.

he's about to meet the smithy on hangmans hill at midnight but I can see he's grown as a character, just like Wilikins.

IMO Sam peaked in Gaurds Guards, we've seen his evolution into The Duke, Commander, Sir Samuel since since. People change and so do their characters, this is what has been constructed here.

GG, Thud, Nightwatch, all Watch classics but snuff so far has intrigued me and I love how Sam and his family have grown.

Times Change. Sam has changed (knuckle dusters apart). Its all good.
 

Eric1002

New Member
Jun 7, 2012
1
1,650
I have read all of the discworld books. I liked most of them a lot.
But I did not like Snuff at all.

Why?
Because there was no humor in this book.
There was only action.

The Discworld series to me is fun to read because of the humor in the stories.
In Snuff there are plenty of opportunities to poke fun, but Terry just did not use them.
When there was a killing he did not let Death enter the scene like he did in a lot of previous books.
When there was an opportunity to make a remark about magic and the funny and wonderful way it works in the Discworld he did not do this.
When there was an opportunity to make a remark about the crazy way the Discworld is functioning he did not do this.
There was only action.

This is not why I am reading the Discworld stories.
I would like to see him continuing to show us why the Discworld is functioning in this very strange way, as he has been telling us in so many of his previous stories.

I do know Snuff was situated on Discworld because he used characters from his former novels, but I did not learn anything new about the Discworld in this story. This makes me sad.
And I am sorry to say, but because of these omissions Snuff was just about the worst Discworld novel I have read.

I do hope that if there will be another Discworld story Terry will be able to include again some of those remarks that makes you wonder and laugh about what a strange, wonderful and funny kind of world the Discworld is.


Eric1001
 

Dotsie

Sergeant-at-Arms
Jul 28, 2008
9,069
2,850
Hi Eric1001/1002 :laugh:

I really enjoyed the book, I think that Terry can use satire as well as belly laughs to get his point across. The fact that Death didn't show up makes the deaths all the more serious - Death often lightens the tone of the funnier novels, to detract from the fact that someone has just been horribly murdered. But as Tony says, it's good that we're all different - a world full of Dotsies would drive me mad! :angry-screaming:
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,337
2,450
Boston, MA USA
Welcome, Eric1002!

While I don't think Snuff is the worst DW book (for me it's still better than all of the Rincewind books put together), I find it to be one of Pterry's worst 'later period' efforts and symptomatic (at least in my opinion) of the ongoing decline in quality of the last few DW books.
 

Alexos

New Member
Jul 15, 2012
1
1,650
Well, after a couple of years of lurking and I don't know how many Pratchett novels read and re-read, I've finally felt the need to create an account - and it's all Snuff's fault. Hi, by the way! And I know I'm late, but I just had to wait for the paperback version (the torture!) because I have them all on paperback and I wanted it to fit in with the others - and as it turns out, it's actually bigger so it doesn't fit in at all. Which, in hindsight, was quite the omen in itself. But anyway.

I didn't like it. And not because it's clearly a book with some serious problems (see raisindot's excellent post); I'm more than willing to ignore continuity errors, verbose dialogues in a language no human being would use and all those "yes indeedy" among other things; plus, I'm ignorant enough myself, so if someone tells me that it's all a parody of Jane Austen's (or whomever) style I'll happily go "oh, ah!" and file it under the "references I couldn't possibly get" category. And I'm not bothered by the, um, rather weak plot and the conversely Invincible Vimes (although the whole affair with the Summoning Dark did leave me a trifle puzzled), nor by the yet-another-mistreated-race thing, nor by the lack of laughing-out-loud moments, nor by Jeeves' - I mean, Willikins' - apparent and sudden logorrhoea; I am admittedly a bit bothered by the lack of Vetinari (as raisindot says, the one we see here isn't really him) and more importantly, by the lack of a meaningful subplot, but hey - they can't all be Night Watch-like masterpieces, can they.

But, willing as I am... All those wonderful moments where I'd find myself nodding at the page and suddenly realising that yes, that's exactly how it goes; all those characters that, despite living in an entirely different fictional universe and being, well, quite often not even human, were still so very alive you'd find the idea to meet one of them not entirely implausible after all; all those things that made me enjoy most (if not all) of Pratchett's books... I just couldn't find them in Snuff. Or in other words, I couldn't find Terry Pratchett; which is a damn shame, yes indeedy.

Oh, it might sound like I'm saying it's an awful book; it isn't. It's still a rather good read, and it does have a few excellent moments. But, and it might be just a coincidence, but -just look at the footnotes; they used to be integral to the novels - take them out and every single Discworld book would be diminished. Here, there's precious few and they're just... footnotes. Perhaps I need to re-read it (in fact, I did enjoy UA a lot more the second time) but right now, I'm a bit of a sad panda. Ah well.

A.
 
Jul 17, 2012
91
1,650
I'm almost finished reading SNUFF for the 5th time, and I have to say - it gets better every time.

I agree that it's not the best DW novel, but that's only my humble opinion. I've read terrible reviews of Night Watch and Monstrous Regiment, and they are 2 of my personal favourites. Snuff is a continuation of a theme. Vimes started off in the gutter, literally, in GG. An alcoholic, no-hoper, who solved the crime, found a good woman, found himself, and earned the respect of Vetinari. He has grown, matured and developed over the course of the books, until, in NW and Thud he suddenly has more to look after than himself and the city - firstly his expectant wife and the life they have, and then, more importantly, his son. At the end of NW he tells Vetinari that there is nothing, NOTHING, he can offer him. And he's right. Vimes has everything - more than he ever dreamed of having, and in THUD, the Deep-Downers try to take that away. They fail (naturally), and that's that storyline done and dusted. So what's next for Vimes? Vimes the drunk is now Vimes the wealthy landowner. A story where Sybil or young Sam in danger being the main plot would be re-hashing of older books, so TP turns to another theme he has used previously - racism.

As with Dwarves, Trolls, Vampires and Golems, there are constant references about their behaviour - they can't be trusted, they're filthy, they eat people/children/babies. Then, each one of these rumours/habits/customs is examined and clarified, and you very quickly see that it's the typical White Trash story - everyone needs someone to look down upon, and there's nothing lower than a Goblin. In UA, it was Orcs, but Orcs were too fierce, whereas Goblins are pitiful creatures, who actually believe the things humans say about them. And Vimes, who originally considered himself not to be racist/speciest, ie he hates them all equally, is again shown to be someone who doesn't care about race or species, and only sees the downtrodden and those who tread on them. Someone wrote way back at the start of this thread, something like - why be disappointed when the story sticks to the formula. They wrote that in relation to it being a mystery novel, but the same is true of it being a Vimes story. Vimes couldn't, and shouldn't, act any other way.

That said, I do have my own criticisms of the book. No Death (what!?); not enough Vetinari, and not enough indication that he is aware of what is going on re Goblin-smuggling; Stinky's role; Ach, there are quite a lot of things, but overall, I think it's a great story, and well worth a second, third, fourth and even fifth read! :)
 

OrangeEyebrows

Lance-Constable
Aug 4, 2012
43
1,650
There are things I very much like about Snuff, but I think they've been covered here.

I do have a major criticism of it, however. Much as I enjoyed it, the Willikins in Snuff isn't...my Willikins.

I loved the nose-eating and apologies for the lack of a biscuit in Jingo. I loved the ice-knife action in...Thud? Was it? But Willikins was a Cockstreet Boy who made good,went off to be Boot Boy at Lord Ramkin's (remember Nightwatch?), then moved up to be Butler. Right?

Here he seems to be someone who's been in prison several times as an adult, and whose patterns of speech are totally off from what I remember from even, say, Nightwatch, which was pretty recent. From a shiny-arsed gentleman's gentleman hiding his origins on Cockbill Street to a real, dirty bruiser? I dunno.

Eyebrows
 
I just took it as Willikins getting more comfortable around Vimes. The way he talks in private is different then in public (often the case with alot of people). and it especially fits as what we are seeing is the off-duty world. not the "professional" watch world of AM.
 

OrangeEyebrows

Lance-Constable
Aug 4, 2012
43
1,650
Perhaps that was the intention - when I re-read I'll try to notice how he speaks when other people are around. It just struck a duff note with me. Obviously not with you, though, and you can't please all of the people all of the time - even if you're Terry Pratchett :)
 

=Tamar

Lieutenant
May 20, 2012
13,274
2,900
It's a little hard to reconcile, but I think there were times and places where the Boy was a Boy regardless of whether he was fifteen or fifty. In Ireland in the 19th century, I think, a man had to be married to stop being a Boy. The "scullery boy" mentioned in Night Watch might have been hired at fifteen. With the attitude toward arresting people at that time, it's possible that he had been in the Tanty twice for short periods of time already. Nobby, who was younger, was afraid of being sent there. And who's to know what young Willikins got up to on his half-day off? At least the first time - after that no doubt he was told not to return showing any signs of having been fighting.
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,337
2,450
Boston, MA USA
OrangeEyebrows said:
Here he seems to be someone who's been in prison several times as an adult, and whose patterns of speech are totally off from what I remember from even, say, Nightwatch, which was pretty recent. From a shiny-arsed gentleman's gentleman hiding his origins on Cockbill Street to a real, dirty bruiser? I dunno.
Agree with you. The Willikens of Jingo and Thud! seemed to be a Jeeves-with-a-switchblade. That was what was so appealing about his character--that he always acted like the typical gentleman's-gentleman even when he was hanging a dwarf on a hook. In Snuff, he's more of a Tonto to Vimes' Lone Ranger. There's almost nothing of the 'Jeeves-blade' in him here. Now, one could explain it away by saying that, given the five years that has passed between Thud! and Snuff that Willikens has become more relaxed and candid around Vimes and the bond the two men share is more about their common Cockbill Street upbringing that their 'master/server' relationship. However, it makes WIllikens' character far less interesting when his role is to serve as the Id Vimes himself can't release in public.
 

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