SPOILERS Snuff *Warning Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
Hi! long time lurker, first time poster.
Just seen how long this post is. Apologies. Just..had...to...let..it..out!
I have read through some of the comments in this topic and I have to say two things first off:
1) I'm not the sort of chap to kick someone while they're down. Especially when they are physically ill.
2) I'm not the sort of chap that makes a habit of complaining.
That said...
I have been reading TP since the late 80's and - this is no word of a lie - have read a TP every single night since then for at least 20 minutes (much longer depending on what sort of a day I have had). Discworld is the last conscious thing I am thinking about before I sleep and that has been the case every single night (without fail) for pretty much 20 years now and it long ago reached the point where I always know what's coming, I know the books that well. Please, don't ask me how many times I have read each book; I couldn't even give you a ballpark figure, but suffice it to say I have - thanks to dogs chewing them, my daughter chewing them and then, as she became a toddler, tearing them, and general wear and tear - bought each book in the series a number of times.
It's my 40th birthday in a few days and I caught myself thinking the other day "wow, how sad am I that a man my age is reading about witches, wizards, unicorns, golems, geriatric barbarians, lusty haidresser master thief barbarians daughters...." you get the picture.
I shouldn't feel the least bit ashamed. If reading about silly things that make me smile makes me a bit of a tit, well, call me a nipple.
Fact is, that whatever life has thrown at me, death of relatives, relationship breakups, financial worries, career concerns....I have gone to sleep on a lighter note because of TPs work.
Apart from 3 occasions.
Monstrous regiment, although good, didn't really do it for me. I felt a bit out of my TP comfort zone. And that's ok, but after I've finished one book and I'm looking through the others for the one that I'm going to read next (and for the next few nights) monstrous regiment is not one that I really consider. In fact it is the only TP book in my collection that I have not had to buy more than one copy of. It doesn't get much wear and tear.
Unseen Academicals. A bit preachy, the characters were no longer talking to me, but making speeches at me. Coupled with the fact that I hate football (definitely NOT TPs fault) this - again - is one I havent read more than 3 or 4 times.
Snuff.
This is the only time I have actually put a TP book up for sale on amazon and is one I no longer own. I don't intend to replace it.
There are so many things that make this a book I would not read again, I'm really at a loss to start. Another reviewer said it better that I probably can, but I will at least air my views because I have been labouring for a while now about letting a little of my frustration out.
1) All the poo stuff. Found it a bit out of sorts, but then I rationalised it by thinking that - assuming a rough time period that it could / would be set in - there would be a distinct lack of other scientific pursuits for a young man to readily engage in. Moreover, people seem fond of forgetting that a lot of animal husbandry must have - originally - been about analysing animal crap. My own daughter went through a phase of being fascinated by boogers. So I'm not that phased by it, I just felt too much was made of it and it didn't really "fit" as such.
2) The unggue pots...ok. I can understand the idea that some cultures do things so far out that they are considered icky by our standards (bearing in mind that there are - in our own world - still cannibals out there). To me, this was actually a clever plot mechanic and I found it interesting.
3) The pot of tears or whatever it was called. This had a profound effect on the whole book for me. It created a very dark tone that affected all of the story to the point that even the funny(ish) bits couldn't drag it back. And my first thought - for the first time since reading discworld books - was "jesus. What kind of a dark place must he be in to write this?!".
This overshot by a long way and immediately made me not want to continue reading. Killing and eating ones own children doesn't really mesh that well with light-hearted humour to say the least. Im sure there will be people that say "well, its happened in the past" etc etc but I reserve the right not to want to read about it.
4) Cheery Littlebottom. The picture I have always had in my mind is of a tough, sharp, on the ball, intelligent career professional that was trusted by vimes because she could be relied upon to do the right thing. Furthermore I always had the impression that a lot more was going on inside her head than she ever communicated; of wheels turning at lightning speed (except in the case of her fashion sense!) but her communication skills being economic, accurate and straight to the point. In Snuff, her character seems to have completely changed and not for the better.
5) Vimes. Superman (all of a sudden?!). I always imagined him as a slightly scruffy, slightly vulnerable, socially aware, working class lad come good with a good grasp of right from wrong. In Snuff he seems to have developed superhuman strength and other abilities but - much more sinister - seems to be capable of turning a blind eye to actual murder by his butler willikins (as opposed to genuine self defence). As a parent I dread the thought of some sick madman going after my little girl. But even I thought "hang on..." when willikins cut the guys throat. To stab someone in the heat of a fight - and especially in self defence - is understandable. To cut their throat is not self defence; that's murder pure and simple and to cut someones throat, you have to be one step over the line between normal argy-bargy and psycho.
There is little point in my going on. But I have stopped buying discworld books for the time being because what has happened to TP is sad enough and I want to remember his stories as they were: the things that have helped me go to sleep with a smile on my face for the last 20 years. I would be really disappointed to buy another book and find even more dark, depressing nonsense or plots and dialogue (speeches) that are at-odds with the characters I've grown to know and love.
I will keep an eye out for any releases in the coming months and years but I will be sure to do something I've never done before: read the reviews (and possibly some of the books) before I actually buy them.
Just seen how long this post is. Apologies. Just..had...to...let..it..out!
I have read through some of the comments in this topic and I have to say two things first off:
1) I'm not the sort of chap to kick someone while they're down. Especially when they are physically ill.
2) I'm not the sort of chap that makes a habit of complaining.
That said...
I have been reading TP since the late 80's and - this is no word of a lie - have read a TP every single night since then for at least 20 minutes (much longer depending on what sort of a day I have had). Discworld is the last conscious thing I am thinking about before I sleep and that has been the case every single night (without fail) for pretty much 20 years now and it long ago reached the point where I always know what's coming, I know the books that well. Please, don't ask me how many times I have read each book; I couldn't even give you a ballpark figure, but suffice it to say I have - thanks to dogs chewing them, my daughter chewing them and then, as she became a toddler, tearing them, and general wear and tear - bought each book in the series a number of times.
It's my 40th birthday in a few days and I caught myself thinking the other day "wow, how sad am I that a man my age is reading about witches, wizards, unicorns, golems, geriatric barbarians, lusty haidresser master thief barbarians daughters...." you get the picture.
I shouldn't feel the least bit ashamed. If reading about silly things that make me smile makes me a bit of a tit, well, call me a nipple.
Fact is, that whatever life has thrown at me, death of relatives, relationship breakups, financial worries, career concerns....I have gone to sleep on a lighter note because of TPs work.
Apart from 3 occasions.
Monstrous regiment, although good, didn't really do it for me. I felt a bit out of my TP comfort zone. And that's ok, but after I've finished one book and I'm looking through the others for the one that I'm going to read next (and for the next few nights) monstrous regiment is not one that I really consider. In fact it is the only TP book in my collection that I have not had to buy more than one copy of. It doesn't get much wear and tear.
Unseen Academicals. A bit preachy, the characters were no longer talking to me, but making speeches at me. Coupled with the fact that I hate football (definitely NOT TPs fault) this - again - is one I havent read more than 3 or 4 times.
Snuff.
This is the only time I have actually put a TP book up for sale on amazon and is one I no longer own. I don't intend to replace it.
There are so many things that make this a book I would not read again, I'm really at a loss to start. Another reviewer said it better that I probably can, but I will at least air my views because I have been labouring for a while now about letting a little of my frustration out.
1) All the poo stuff. Found it a bit out of sorts, but then I rationalised it by thinking that - assuming a rough time period that it could / would be set in - there would be a distinct lack of other scientific pursuits for a young man to readily engage in. Moreover, people seem fond of forgetting that a lot of animal husbandry must have - originally - been about analysing animal crap. My own daughter went through a phase of being fascinated by boogers. So I'm not that phased by it, I just felt too much was made of it and it didn't really "fit" as such.
2) The unggue pots...ok. I can understand the idea that some cultures do things so far out that they are considered icky by our standards (bearing in mind that there are - in our own world - still cannibals out there). To me, this was actually a clever plot mechanic and I found it interesting.
3) The pot of tears or whatever it was called. This had a profound effect on the whole book for me. It created a very dark tone that affected all of the story to the point that even the funny(ish) bits couldn't drag it back. And my first thought - for the first time since reading discworld books - was "jesus. What kind of a dark place must he be in to write this?!".
This overshot by a long way and immediately made me not want to continue reading. Killing and eating ones own children doesn't really mesh that well with light-hearted humour to say the least. Im sure there will be people that say "well, its happened in the past" etc etc but I reserve the right not to want to read about it.
4) Cheery Littlebottom. The picture I have always had in my mind is of a tough, sharp, on the ball, intelligent career professional that was trusted by vimes because she could be relied upon to do the right thing. Furthermore I always had the impression that a lot more was going on inside her head than she ever communicated; of wheels turning at lightning speed (except in the case of her fashion sense!) but her communication skills being economic, accurate and straight to the point. In Snuff, her character seems to have completely changed and not for the better.
5) Vimes. Superman (all of a sudden?!). I always imagined him as a slightly scruffy, slightly vulnerable, socially aware, working class lad come good with a good grasp of right from wrong. In Snuff he seems to have developed superhuman strength and other abilities but - much more sinister - seems to be capable of turning a blind eye to actual murder by his butler willikins (as opposed to genuine self defence). As a parent I dread the thought of some sick madman going after my little girl. But even I thought "hang on..." when willikins cut the guys throat. To stab someone in the heat of a fight - and especially in self defence - is understandable. To cut their throat is not self defence; that's murder pure and simple and to cut someones throat, you have to be one step over the line between normal argy-bargy and psycho.
There is little point in my going on. But I have stopped buying discworld books for the time being because what has happened to TP is sad enough and I want to remember his stories as they were: the things that have helped me go to sleep with a smile on my face for the last 20 years. I would be really disappointed to buy another book and find even more dark, depressing nonsense or plots and dialogue (speeches) that are at-odds with the characters I've grown to know and love.
I will keep an eye out for any releases in the coming months and years but I will be sure to do something I've never done before: read the reviews (and possibly some of the books) before I actually buy them.
I'm rereading Snuff at the moment myself and thoroughly enjoying. It's a cracking good book. I also think that Monstrous Regiment is a wonderful book and I also enjoyed Unseen Academicals. The latter two, I have to say, I wasn't sure of on the first read through - and I don't like football either - but UA wasn't about football. 
That's the great thing about Pratchett and one of the reasons that our discussions are often lively - people get different things from the books.
Welcome to the site.
That's the great thing about Pratchett and one of the reasons that our discussions are often lively - people get different things from the books.
Welcome to the site.
Hi tourosspoon,
I think you will find there are people a lot older than you reading Pterry's books afterall he writes them and is in his mid sixties, come to a Discworld convention and see for yourself, and Terry is not a football fan either, it's more about the mentality of a crowd or pack who follow suchlike.
Welcome to the forum
I think you will find there are people a lot older than you reading Pterry's books afterall he writes them and is in his mid sixties, come to a Discworld convention and see for yourself, and Terry is not a football fan either, it's more about the mentality of a crowd or pack who follow suchlike.
Welcome to the forum
Who's Wee Dug said:
Hi tourosspoon,
I think you will find there are people a lot older than you reading Pterry's books afterall he writes them and is in his mid sixties, come to a Discworld convention and see for yourself, and Terry is not a football fan either, it's more about the mentality of a crowd or pack who follow suchlike.
Welcome to the forum
I think you will find there are people a lot older than you reading Pterry's books afterall he writes them and is in his mid sixties, come to a Discworld convention and see for yourself, and Terry is not a football fan either, it's more about the mentality of a crowd or pack who follow suchlike.
Welcome to the forum
Glad to hear I'm not the only big kid. Conventions aren't my kind of thing really and taking time out to do something like that would mean sacrificing some family time (which is precious). I'm sure its very interesting though and thank you for the suggestion. Perhaps when my family are older and daddy is no longer required to be taxi, pack mule and general dogsbody, I will take some time to come see what weird and wonderful costumes other TP fans are wearing
Yes, I got that about the football side of UA. It's largely the pack mentality that irks me about football which is - lets face it - 22 people chasing a ball up and down a field. And I'll admit some prejudice based on the select few violent idiots that insist on turning a sport into an excuse to be, well, idiots.
The fact that footballers are put on pedestals and yet the average nurse or teacher is treated like a necessary evil is not lost on me either.
I would like to see TP write about the race to get airborne. I imagine ponder or the librarian on the discworld equivalent of a hang glider and - as a flyer myself - find the idea hilarious. Perhaps Rincewind would not like the idea however...especially given that he already wakes up in cold sweat around 3am...
Ouch! You have to remember that although you might have just read our posts on this thread, it's months since we wrote them. So when someone new shows up, we 'reiterate' I don't think there can be any doubt that opinions expressed on here are indeed opinions. And we all like to share them without invitation!
Welcome to the site
You have to remember that although you might have just read our posts on this thread, it's months since we wrote them. So when someone new shows up, we 'reiterate' I don't think there can be any doubt that opinions expressed on here are indeed opinions. And we all like to share them without invitation!Welcome to the site
Welcome Tour. One thing about this site is people are NOT hesitant about giving their opinions and restating them when others post contrary viewpoints (me being one of the foulest offenders in this regard). Occasionally, some of the debates can get rather heated (by online discussion standards) and sometimes new posters whose opinions are dissed RHETORICALLY get a bit defensive (I was one of these when I first started). This hasn't happened to you, but it might at some point, and the best way to deal with it is to remember not to take this whole thing too seriously. At some point, someone may shoot down an argument you've made, and may be a little patronizing. That's just who were are around here--a very friendly lot, but also a bit cantankerous and ornery at times. That's what makes it never boring.
And, for the record, I agree with all your point on Snuff and Unseen Academicals. And I have no problem attributing the decline in his writing partly to his illness. It's a given that few prolific writers can keep up the quality of their work forever. As far as I'm concerned, Pterry's illness has changed the way he writers--he is now dictating, rather than writing, and this has resulted in a sharp decline in the quality of his recent adult DW books--that and the fact that it appears that no one is editing his adult DW books at all. I don't think it is wrong to speculate on why a best-selling author's works have declined. He is a public personality, he knows that everything he published is fair game for critics of all kinds. And nothing that I or you or anyone else says here will hurt or hinder him in any way.
And, for the record, I agree with all your point on Snuff and Unseen Academicals. And I have no problem attributing the decline in his writing partly to his illness. It's a given that few prolific writers can keep up the quality of their work forever. As far as I'm concerned, Pterry's illness has changed the way he writers--he is now dictating, rather than writing, and this has resulted in a sharp decline in the quality of his recent adult DW books--that and the fact that it appears that no one is editing his adult DW books at all. I don't think it is wrong to speculate on why a best-selling author's works have declined. He is a public personality, he knows that everything he published is fair game for critics of all kinds. And nothing that I or you or anyone else says here will hurt or hinder him in any way.
It isn't all Sir Terry's fault. They never have copyedited his work properly. Discworld began during the 1980s, just as the publishing world slid deeply into the pit of not bothering to copyedit much. For instance, Wyrd Sisters has a place or two where somebody - whether the author or the copyeditor - couldn't keep track of who was speaking, Granny vs Nanny, and that problem has continued right up through Carpe Jugulum. Sir Terry has had to defend his work against the meddlers who change things just to prove they have a job, and there's only so much time and effort available. Try comparing a UK hardback 1st edition with a US hardback 1st edition published at the same time and see how many differences there are. I did that with The Truth. Some changes were minor, some were substantial, and at least one very subtle change made a major difference in a character.
Tamar, I have all of the British Corgi paperbacks up to "The Fifth Elephant" and they are riddled with typos, so I agree that there definitely is a lack of copyediting on many of these books--even the British ones. Maybe the original hardcovers are better.
But what I'm really talking about is a lack of a strong editor's presence in Pterry's recent adult DW books. UA and Snuff are terribly overwritten and full of continuity and other errors that a strong editorial presence would have caught and curbed. It's my belief, which I can't prove, that he has some kind of agreement whereby editors aren't allowed to make changes to the text other than correcting grammatical efforts. The writing problems themselves are left as is.
The only "evidence" I have to support this theory (and it's not strong evidence at all) is the greatness of "I Shall Wear Midnight." To me, that's his last great work. There's not an ounce of literary fat on it at all. Which makes me think that, because it is a YA book and thus requires a strong YA editorial hand to make sure the content is neither inappropriate or beyond YA reading levels, that the editor might have trimmed out some of the excesses that could have been in the original draft. Again, nothing more than a theory.
But what I'm really talking about is a lack of a strong editor's presence in Pterry's recent adult DW books. UA and Snuff are terribly overwritten and full of continuity and other errors that a strong editorial presence would have caught and curbed. It's my belief, which I can't prove, that he has some kind of agreement whereby editors aren't allowed to make changes to the text other than correcting grammatical efforts. The writing problems themselves are left as is.
The only "evidence" I have to support this theory (and it's not strong evidence at all) is the greatness of "I Shall Wear Midnight." To me, that's his last great work. There's not an ounce of literary fat on it at all. Which makes me think that, because it is a YA book and thus requires a strong YA editorial hand to make sure the content is neither inappropriate or beyond YA reading levels, that the editor might have trimmed out some of the excesses that could have been in the original draft. Again, nothing more than a theory.
Unfortunately, there is ample evidence that the editors make wholesale changes. It isn't just changing "trainers" to "sneakers", though as I recall it, Sir Terry did say once that he "had to go to the mat" for "biscuit" instead of "cookie" in, if I recall correctly, Thief of Time. When The Truth came out, they came out at the same time (instead of waiting several months or years for the US edition), and I compared them line by line and word by word. There were dozens of changes - not typos, changes. For instance, Otto's accent was meddled with in virtually every line he had, some words made more accented, others made less accented. There was no rhyme or reason to it. The two changes that made me the most annoyed were the removal of one of Mr Tulip's most important lines ("Good." - the line which indicated that he approved of his having to work off his karma.) and a change that softened Lord de Worde's characterization. Even aside from those, there were paragraphs rewritten, rearranged paragraphs on a page, and so on, so it looked almost as though the two editors had received different manuscripts.
It's interesting that you say that, because (although I like the book myself) I've read opinions online that there were "digressions" that could have been cut from ISWM; usually they are complaints about the scenes in Ankh-Morpork.
Similarly, there are a full spectrum of opinions about Snuff available online.
It's interesting that you say that, because (although I like the book myself) I've read opinions online that there were "digressions" that could have been cut from ISWM; usually they are complaints about the scenes in Ankh-Morpork.
Similarly, there are a full spectrum of opinions about Snuff available online.
I remember reading this one a while back. I found it entertaining as ever, but I felt bits of it were rushed or too convenient for Sam Vimes' character, so I never got the impression that the stakes were as high as they were in books like Guards! Guards!, Jingo, The Fifth Elephant, and Thud!. For instance, when the guy from the magistrates came in person - I think he was the lawyer or something - it just felt like he was introduced only to be soundly outmatched by Vimes' force of personality.
Another thing I didn't enjoy was the weakness of the villains. Having them be "offscreen" made the work feel weaker, because Vimes was just opposing a character-less nebulous thing rather than a face. I prefer the books in which there is a recognizable villain with a personality, because it's more enjoyable to watch them face off against the heroes than it is to read about the awful stuff a bunch of anonymous people are doing or have done "offscreen", so to speak.
I also felt that the one villain with a face, Stratford, was undermined by the fact that he just kept losing over and over, so it was hard to feel the dread that his character should have invoked. By comparison, Carcer was a much more effective antagonist because he had the upper hand a fair few times, and you really got a sense of what a monster he was because we were constantly reminded of how efficient he can be at killing people (up until the climax at the graveyard) and of just how twisted his mind and behaviour was.
It had some good bits. I didn't mind that the goblins were a bit one-dimensional, because I think it let Terry focus on the point that they were being unfairly judged for their stereotypical appearances and for being different, and it was interesting to see Vimes in another culture clash situation. But overall, I think this is not one of Terry's best works. I'd probably read it again once or twice, or at least bits of it.
Another thing I didn't enjoy was the weakness of the villains. Having them be "offscreen" made the work feel weaker, because Vimes was just opposing a character-less nebulous thing rather than a face. I prefer the books in which there is a recognizable villain with a personality, because it's more enjoyable to watch them face off against the heroes than it is to read about the awful stuff a bunch of anonymous people are doing or have done "offscreen", so to speak.
I also felt that the one villain with a face, Stratford, was undermined by the fact that he just kept losing over and over, so it was hard to feel the dread that his character should have invoked. By comparison, Carcer was a much more effective antagonist because he had the upper hand a fair few times, and you really got a sense of what a monster he was because we were constantly reminded of how efficient he can be at killing people (up until the climax at the graveyard) and of just how twisted his mind and behaviour was.
It had some good bits. I didn't mind that the goblins were a bit one-dimensional, because I think it let Terry focus on the point that they were being unfairly judged for their stereotypical appearances and for being different, and it was interesting to see Vimes in another culture clash situation. But overall, I think this is not one of Terry's best works. I'd probably read it again once or twice, or at least bits of it.
So many people talk about the "weak" villain. I see the real villain in Snuff as extremely powerful. The real villain is, of course, the entrenched society that thinks they ought to be able to say what the law is and to whom it applies. They proclaim themselves magistrates, jail anyone who disagrees with them, or have them conveniently "disappear" like the blacksmith, and send an organized mob against the only local policeman when he begins to stand up against them. The only person who can fight them only has the strength to do it because he, too, has become rich and a "noble" - Sam Vimes. His qualities as a policeman would mean nothing if he weren't also rich and titled. If he had been given money and a title but they were new, instead of being "old money", he would have still been ignored. The villagers are exhibiting Stockholm syndrome, trained to believe the system is good because they know what'll happen to them if they object. Finally, even when Gravid Rust, the "faceless" (dare we say corporate) villain in charge, is arrested, because of political influence, he is only exiled, and we are left with an ambiguous statement that maybe, must maybe, an assassin will get rid of him by an "accident" - because the law can't touch him; even Vetinari the tyrant can't.
Stratford, losing? He kept escaping. He murdered one goblin on-page, so to speak. He took over a boat full of strong people. He escaped on the river, he invaded the ship, he attempted to kill a small child, he escaped yet again, and murdered the guards. Finally the only way to get rid of him was the trained killer on "our" side.
Stratford, losing? He kept escaping. He murdered one goblin on-page, so to speak. He took over a boat full of strong people. He escaped on the river, he invaded the ship, he attempted to kill a small child, he escaped yet again, and murdered the guards. Finally the only way to get rid of him was the trained killer on "our" side.
Sorry, I couldn't bear to go back through 40 pages-worth of' opinions!
The interesting thing about this book for me was that it had suddenly appeared on the desk beside my bed when I'd returned home from being in London for a few months. My mother and father denied having got me it (assuming it was cheaper than usual from a supermarket or so). Even if one of them had got me it, they didn't even know then that I had any particular liking for Terry Pratchett books; especially not my father. So to this day I still don't know where it came from. I am, of course, most appreciative for receiving this free book.
Unfortunately, I can't say I got so much from reading this one. The story didn't seem too engaging, aside from a few amusing things about being in the countryside, and the ending chapters were even quite dull, in my thoughts.
The interesting thing about this book for me was that it had suddenly appeared on the desk beside my bed when I'd returned home from being in London for a few months. My mother and father denied having got me it (assuming it was cheaper than usual from a supermarket or so). Even if one of them had got me it, they didn't even know then that I had any particular liking for Terry Pratchett books; especially not my father. So to this day I still don't know where it came from. I am, of course, most appreciative for receiving this free book.
Unfortunately, I can't say I got so much from reading this one. The story didn't seem too engaging, aside from a few amusing things about being in the countryside, and the ending chapters were even quite dull, in my thoughts.
